"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[OneJack]

What can you read in my post ... the words we've heard and learned from God, which He allowed us to write for dissemination to all? They are all testimonies to the Lord ...

Are you saying you heard God's words and you are repeating God's words to us?

As I have said, we share with everyone the Lord's teachings that we've heard and learned from Him.

You say you "heard" (that seems to convey the idea that sounds were captured by you through your hearing ) what did you hear? did you hear your "Lord" speak words? or was it music or vibrations or unidentifiable sounds that you "heard"?

I said we heard from the Lord, not I heard, as you misquoted me. The Lord Jesus taught us that He does not reveal Himself to only one individual without witnesses. I have posted many of the Lord Jesus' utterances (words He spoke to us) in this forum chat board, which we heard and learned from the Lord Jesus Christ during His shepherding work with us.

.... the Lord is the one who will tell you His commandments

Did he tell you that? Show me verbatim where he said he will tell me what his commandments are.

I have shown this to you in my previous post. The Lord said:

Remember, eternal life and your salvation are in My hands. If you want to be saved, come and draw near to Me. If you want eternal life, come and call upon Me.

Ref. post: No, the Lord is the one who will tell you His commandments that you will put into practice, since He is also the one who will tell you when you will be rewarded with salvation and eternal life.

[OneJack]

They are testimonies to the Lord that He exists; hence, you may decide to come to Him for your salvation and eternal life.

Okay...let's recap where we are with regard to written (or verbal) testimonies.

• You testify that it is impossible to say whether the writings of Moses are true because of not being personal eyewitesses of the events he recorded

True!

• Jesus indicated people should believe the writings of Moses, even though they were not personal eyewitnesses of events; indeed Jesus said "Happy are those that have not seen and yet believe.

False. Jesus said, 'If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?' You know more or less what the 'If' conditional clause means in this context, why say 'Jesus indicated people should believe the writings of Moses, even though they were not personal eyewitnesses of events; indeed Jesus said "Happy are those that have not seen and yet believe,' where are you coming from with these fabricated passages you interwoven with themselves to suit you obsession of the scriptures/bible? I have explained what Jesus wanted the people to believe in for them to HAVE LIFE, which is in paradox to the belief of the people then, whose hopes were put on Moses alone.

So we have a very fundamental contradiction between your testimony and the testimony of Jesus ( recorded by John) Yours is basically saying that something must be witnessed personally to be believed (you even cast doubts on the Prophet Moses because you were not an witness of his encounters) Jesus on the other hand encouraged people to read scripture and believe what is read to be true.

It's your fabricated opinion that is in contradiction to what is written in the bible, you keep on inventing and interweaving biblical passages that do not have any relevance or bearing to the issue we tackle in this context.

[OneJack]

Let's recap what you say your "role" is ...

You claim to be a "messenger" and that your role is to teach others what you have been taught.

False! My role is not to teach but to make all nations the Lord's servants and disciples.

The Lord said to us: Go forth and make all nations My servants and disciples, and I bless you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

You do not however seem to have been taught anything that isn't already in the bible

Your opinion draws people away from Jesus but nigh to the bible, which is not Jesus, the Almighty God. Can you point me to where in the bible we can read the following teachings [today in our time] of the Lord Jesus, verbatim as quoted by the Lord, to wit:

'Go forth and make all nations My servants and disciples, and I bless you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.'

'I am the Pastor, I am the Good Pastor. Remember, no one else will teach you except Me. If you explain to one another, it's only according to your own will, according to your own thoughts. So remember, anyone who stands as a pastor, who stands as a leader of My church, is working iniquity and stealing My place as the Good Pastor.'

'Come and I will teach you. Only your Lord can teach you the meaning of sin, especially since there are many errors and not included in the Bible.'

with one exception you have been taught that God's word are NOT in scripture. You make a de facto claim that God's words are in your posts (you quote Almighty God verbatum) but you have been told that none of his words are in scripture.

Quote me in verbatim mode, do not put your words/opinion/idea in my mouth.

What can you read in my post if I do not present my words and the words we've heard and learned from God, which He allowed us to write for dissemination to all? They are all testimonies to the Lord, and they are not the ones who save but the Lord Himself alone.

So your "message" is in direct contradiction of that of JESUS who equated written scripture with the spoken word of God. For example, in Gospel of Matthew 22:31–32 Jesus is recorded as saying ...

“Have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
‘I am the God of Abraham…’”

So Jesus here is indicating people could READ what God spoke (He was quoting from the bible book of Deuteronomy).

Whatever you claim, you're just expressing your opinion based on what you have read and understood in the bible since you've heard nothing yet from the Lord Jesus, the Almighty God. The bible is not God.

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #293]

And finally a word on your attitude to scripture...

You claim God did have some words in the bible but they were ... LOST

Jesus stated clearly that quote "scripture cannot be broken"

with a little help for AI here is some background on the Greek of the above....

λυθῆναι (lythēnai)

“to be broken,” “loosed,” “annulled,” “set aside”

This is the key word.

It is the aorist passive infinitive of λύω (lyō).

The verb λύω has a broad semantic range:

loosen
untie
release
dissolve
invalidate
abolish
break apart

So your message (that scripture has been lost) is in direct contradiction to that of Jesus



CONCLUSION Do we believe your "spirit" that indicated God failed to ensure scripture was not "lost", that claimed that God never said anything in scripture and never instructed his words be written therein. Do we believe your "message" that everyone should open themselves up to the paranormal and seek contact with spirits (spiritism , a very dangerous game to play)

Or do we believe the eyewitness testimony of the Prophets and gospel writers that testify that Jesus affirmed the scripture of his day contained the sayings of God and that nothing and nobody can destroy break invalidate scripture We cannot accept BOTH because your "message" and "testimony" is in direct contradiction to those of Jesus as testified by the apostles.

Even if the bible were all authenticated books in the first-hand degree writings of its authors, you would still not need it as far as the way to your salvation is concerned, since the Lord Jesus alone is all you need to be saved and have life. Why are you so obsessed with the bible that you even resorted to bothering AI to give too much relevance to the bible in your spiritual quest for God, and your salvation and eternal life?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to tam in post #250]

False teachings can come from individuals and religions. Of course this is why we are to hold all things up against the Truth and the Light (Christ, Himself.)

The way in which you claim to "hold all things up against Christ" is the fantasy you have that you hear directly from Jesus. You give "lip service" to the idea that we are not to hold things up to the Bible, while continuing to cite the Bible in order to defend the idea that we are not to hold things up to the Bible. However, the more important factor here is the fact that you would have never known, nor heard of the Name of Jesus if it had not been for the Bible. PERIOD! This means, you owe what you know about Jesus to the authors contained in the NT.

In fact, we all are in debt to the apostles, and the authors contained in the NT for what we know about Jesus, and the Gospel. You know, the ones with whom the preaching of the Gospel brought death to them, but this same message which brought death to the apostles, has brought life to us. This is exactly what Paul meant when he said to the Corinthians,

"So then, death works in us, but life in you."

In other words, the message of the Gospel brought death to the mortal bodies of the apostles, but this same Gospel (Good News) which brought death to the apostles, has brought life to me, and you. And here you are, relaxed, free from the threat of death because of the message of the Good News, typing away on your computer every day, which the apostles and authors of the NT did not have, in fact, they did not even have pen and paper, and you have the nerve to suggest that you have the luxury of a direct line to Jesus. What I am saying is, the message of the Gospel has cost you absolutely nothing whatsoever, and I mean nothing, zilch, ZERO, compared to the apostles, and yet you are on some sort of whole different spiritual plain to the point Jesus communicates with you directly, while at the same time it is a fact beyond any debate that you would have never known the Name of Jesus had it not been for the work of those who were eyewitnesses of Jesus alive after death, who went to their grave for continuing to preach what they had witnessed, in order for folks like us to hear the Gospel message, and the whole time these apostles had no need in doing any of this because Jesus communicates with us all directly.

Let's go through this again. You have this fantasy that you are somehow so privileged to have a direct line to Jesus, to the point you want to insist that we should not hold up anything against the Bible, but rather your direct line to Jesus, the whole while you continue to appeal to this same Bible you insist we should not be holding things up against, in order to continue the fantasy that you are so privileged to have this direct line to Jesus, and this direct line to Jesus has cost you absolutely nothing, while the preaching of the Gospel cost the apostles their lives, on top of the fact that you would have never known anything at all concerning Jesus if it had not been for what the apostles gave their lives for, in order for you to even know the Name Jesus.

Can you spell, ASHAMED? Because that is exactly what you should be!

Not hold all things up against 'the bible'.

And here we go, in the very next sentence. We are not to hold anything up to the Bible, even though you would have never known the Name of Jesus without the Bible, and the authors contained in the Bible gave their lives in order to bring life to us, and we would have never known they gave their lives in order to bring life to us if it had not been for what is contained in the Bible, all the while you continue to appeal to this very same Bible which you insist we should not hold anything up to, in order to defend your fantasy that you have a direct line to Jesus which has cost you absolutely nothing.

So then, we can trash the Bible which cost these men who witnessed the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, and rather listen to you since you have a direct line to Jesus. Of course, you are now going to insist that we are not to listen to you, but are rather to listen to Jesus, but the thing is, if you are so certain you have this direct line to Jesus, then if we listen to what you have to say, then this would absolutely mean we would be listening to words directly from Jesus, correct? If not, why not?

Let's go through it again. According to you, we are not to hold anything up to the Bible, but rather to Jesus. You insist to have a direct line to Jesus. So then, I can take your word for it that we can all hear from Jesus directly, because you have heard this directly from Jesus, correct? I have nowhere else to go but you, unless you tell me that I should ask and believe that I can hear from Jesus directly as well, but if I were to do this and believed I may have heard something from Jesus, how could I be sure it was indeed Jesus as opposed to someone, or something else? At this point you will tell me to hold up what I believe I heard from Jesus to Jesus, and then the question is, what is the gauge here? In other words, I think I may have heard from Jesus, but I want to be sure it is not my own brain, some other spirit, or Jesus Himself, and you tell me to hold up what I believe I heard to Jesus in order to determine if it was indeed Jesus, and I am just continuing to go around in circles.

On the other hand, I can let go of the idea that I can hear from Jesus directly, and listen to those I am sure walked, talked, and listened to Jesus for a number of years, and then went on to witness His death on the cross, along with His resurrection, going on to continue to preach what they had witnessed, which cost them their lives, and we can all know this to be fact by reading what they had to say, as opposed to listening to you who wants to insist you hear from Jesus directly and it has cost you absolutely nothing whatsoever. Please tell me, which would you choose? SERIOUSLY! Would you choose to hold things up to those you know walked, talked, and witnessed the life, teachings, death, and resurrection, which went on to their death proclaiming the resurrection? Or would you choose to believe the one who claims to hear from Jesus directly, which has cost them absolutely nothing whatsoever, who appeals to these very authors in order to defend the idea that we should not hold things up to what they have to say? GOOD GRIEF!

And Jack, you have not shown anything I have shared that contradicts Christ.

How in the world could I possibly do such a thing? I cannot appeal to the Bible, because you insist this is not what we are supposed to do. I cannot appeal to what I hear from Jesus directly because I do not have such a fantasy. With this being the case, I am left with taking your word for it that you are hearing from Jesus directly, and I am supposed to listen to Christ, and since you hear from Him directly, and the Bible is not to be trusted in that we are not to hold anything up to the Bible, I am stuck with listening to what you are certain you have heard from Jesus, that we are to listen to Him directly, but it is not a real voice, but some other imagined way of communication.

You see, the problem is not that "I have not shown anything you have shared that contradicts Christ," but rather the fact that you have not shared anything whatsoever which would demonstrate you have a direct line to Jesus, and if you cannot demonstrate this to be the case, then it does absolutely no one any good whatsoever to believe this fantasy of yours.

But you see, we have another here "OneJack" who also claims to hear from Jesus directly, and you and "OneJack" contradict each other. The question now is, do we listen to you, and your direct line to Jesus? Or do we listen to "OneJack?" Again, you will tell me we are not to listen to you, "OneJack" nor the Bible, but rather listen to Jesus directly. Of course, the question then is, what if what I am convinced I hear from Jesus directly, contradicts both you, and "OneJack?" Again, what is the gauge?


On the other hand, we have what is contained in the NT, which has convinced even the most critical scholars (those who are not Christian) that the apostles could not have possibly made the story of the resurrection up. This message contained in the Bible (you know, the Bible you say we are not to hold anything up to?) has had the most significant impact upon the history of the world, to the point that Jesus is the most recognized Name in the history of the world, including the FACT that you would have never heard, nor ever known the Name of Jesus without the Bible, with the authors contained in the Bible giving their lives in order for you and I to know these things concerning Jesus, as opposed to you, which has had absolutely ZERO impact upon the world, which has cost you absolutely nothing.

As for me, I am choosing to go with those who I know with certainty I can have confidence in, and that is those authors contained in the Bible. As for you, it is not as though I do not have confidence in your claim to hear from Jesus directly, but rather I know for a fact that you do not hear from Jesus directly.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #305]

I'm going to wait to respond to give you a chance to get to the rest of the post (some things you write are answered further down in the very same post). I think you may also have overlooked this post (which has to do with walking by faith):

viewtopic.php?p=1186823#p1186823

**Oh, and you can test against what is written if you want to - it is just not perfect, as you know, due to the erring pen of the scribes. But most people need to SEE something before considering it, since most walk by sight (until learning to walk by faith.) If you are going to test against what is written, however, consider putting Christ's words first - since He is the Truth and the Word of God. He is the One to whom God SAID to listen.

Why would I post His words from what is written to help you see what He has said on a matter, if you cannot do the same?


Peace again.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #305]

But you see, we have another here "OneJack" who also claims to hear from Jesus directly, and you and "OneJack" contradict each other. The question now is, do we listen to you, and your direct line to Jesus? Or do we listen to "OneJack?"

You don't have to listen to anyone, not to me, tam, and any other who claims to have spoken to Christ. We all have to listen only to the real and eternally living Christ JESUS for the truth about God, our salvation, and eternal life. He is beside us all at all times, though we don't see Him yet. Christ matters only in this topic of discussion.

Again, you will tell me we are not to listen to you, "OneJack" nor the Bible, but rather listen to Jesus directly.

Tam would not say 'listen directly to Jesus,' the 'small still voice' spirit being whom she speaks with denies Jesus is Christ or the name of Christ; hence, to her, Jesus is not Christ.

Of course, the question then is, what if what I am convinced I hear from Jesus directly, contradicts both you, and "OneJack?" Again, what is the gauge?

If Jesus were speaking with you, no wonder you would know [from Him] the gauge that you would use to recognize the words of Christ vis-à-vis the words of the false Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself is the only gauge for the truth and the lies, no one else.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #250]

False teachings can come from individuals and religions. Of course this is why we are to hold all things up against the Truth and the Light (Christ, Himself.)

...

However, the more important factor here is the fact that you would have never known, nor heard of the Name of Jesus if it had not been for the Bible.

That may well be true, Jack. But "Jesus" is not the name of Christ, the Son and Holy One of God. He was never called that name. It is incorrect in both translation (keeping the meaning from one language to another) and transliteration (keeping the same sound from one language to another.)

Some might say that it doesn't matter - but how can it not matter? Truth matters! And this is the name that the Father gave His Son, the only name under heaven by which we may be saved. It matters.

My Lord is not "Jesus." "Jesus" can be whomever/whatever religion makes him out to be - gun-toting Jesus, republican Jesus, Trinity Jesus, JW Jesus, "Roman" Jesus, etc. etc. That Jesus doesn't speak because people and religion made him up.

But there is the true person - the person the apostles bore witness to, the person who is the Son of God, the Holy One of God, the Chosen One of God, the Word of God.

His name is Jah'eshua (meaning JAH saves/salvation of JAH).

His name has the name of the Father (JAH) in it.

Just as did the prophets of old.

EliJAH (my God is JAH)
ZecharIAH
JeremIAH

ETC.

If the prophets had the name of JAH in their names, how much more so the Son of God, who came in the Name of His Father?

He is the Living One - who does speak, and whose sheep listen to His voice.

Would you choose to hold things up to those you know walked, talked, and witnessed the life, teachings, death, and resurrection, which went on to their death proclaiming the resurrection? Or would you choose to believe the one who claims to hear from Jesus directly, which has cost them absolutely nothing whatsoever, who appeals to these very authors in order to defend the idea that we should not hold things up to what they have to say?

I would choose to listen to the One who is alive, dear Jack. The Living Word of God - who lives and speaks. I would choose to listen to Him.

I am bearing witness to the Living Christ - whether some hear, or refrain.

No one has to take my word for anything.

Come to Him (if you wish) and ask Him.

If anyone wishes to hear Him, then ask Him for ears to hear... keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking, and the door will be opened.


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OneJack]

[Replying to tam in post #308]

I am bearing witness to the Living Christ - whether some hear, or refrain.

What exactly are you witnessing in favor of the small still voice’ spirit being, whom you claim as Christ? What did he tell you about himself that makes you witness in his favor? What did he command you to do?

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #308]

I am bearing witness to the Living Christ - whether some hear, or refrain.

Wouldn't it be fair to say you are bearing witness about the slave that you are?