"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #147]

What, specifically, is that 'rest for your soul'

See "POI" as an example of a restless soul. Does that help answer your question?

He wants God to give in to his desire and wisdom; I don’t know the technical term for that. Would ‘restless soul’ fit him in that regard? It seems not to fit into him, in my perception.

The "answer" I offered was simply a suggestion.

What do you think a "restless soul" might be describing?

A restless soul is a person perpetually seeking change, adventure, or deeper meaning, often feeling dissatisfied with their current circumstances, routines, or location. Driven by a constant need for something "more," they may change homes, careers, or relationships frequently. It signifies an inner, insatiable hunger and inability to settle.

A restless soul has no satisfaction.

[POI]

[Replying to OneJack in post #151]

Demonstrate the existence of a "soul" at all. Thousands of years ago, many ancients associated the 'soul' as being (breath, wind, and/or air), because they did not fully understand as to what these concepts were. Now that we know better, we still have claims to the 'soul', which is no longer understood to merely be (breath, wind, and/or air.) So, what is the 'soul' in reality, and how do you prove we humans have one?

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #151]

Demonstrate the existence of a "soul" at all. Thousands of years ago, many ancients associated the 'soul' as being (breath, wind, and/or air), because they did not fully understand as to what these concepts were. Now that we know better, we still have claims to the 'soul', which is no longer understood to merely be (breath, wind, and/or air.) So, what is the 'soul' in reality, and how do you prove we humans have one?

The Lord taught us that the soul is also spirit - the life that makes a physical body move, speak, think, etc.

The best proof that we humans have one Spirit each is when we dream at night, the time when our souls leave our physical bodies, which, in turn, die temporarily, and our spirits wander somewhere far, or near, or just around our houses.

[POI]

The Lord taught us that the soul is also spirit - the life that makes a physical body move, speak, think, etc.

Okay?

The best proof that we humans have one Spirit each is when we dream at night, the time when our souls leave our physical bodies, which, in turn, die temporarily, and our spirits wander somewhere far, or near, or just around our houses.

Hmm... Interesting assertion. Do animals also have "souls"?

[OneJack]

The Lord taught us that the soul is also spirit - the life that makes a physical body move, speak, think, etc.

Okay?

The best proof that we humans have one Spirit each is when we dream at night, the time when our souls leave our physical bodies, which, in turn, die temporarily, and our spirits wander somewhere far, or near, or just around our houses.

Hmm... Interesting assertion. Do animals also have "souls"?

Absolutely! Any creature that moves has Spirit.

[POI]

[Replying to OneJack in post #155]

Sorry. Scientific studies and neurophysiological research provide compelling evidence that dreams and out-of-body experiences (OBEs) are generated by the brain, rather than being instances of a spirit leaving the body. Dream studies, particularly those using electroencephalography (EEG) and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), show that dreaming is an internally generated mental state coupled with brain activity during sleep, not a departure of consciousness. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... we%20dream.).

Sorry if I do not adhere to your blank and baseless assertion(s) over actual research.

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #155]

Sorry. Scientific studies and neurophysiological research provide compelling evidence that dreams and out-of-body experiences (OBEs) are generated by the brain, rather than being instances of a spirit leaving the body. Dream studies, particularly those using electroencephalography (EEG) and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), show that dreaming is an internally generated mental state coupled with brain activity during sleep, not a departure of consciousness. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... we%20dream.).

Sorry if I do not adhere to your blank and baseless assertion(s) over actual research.

The Almighty God alone is the absolute basis of truth in everything, no other else, not even actual research of the learned, per se.

My father was hospitalized when I was 21 years old. He was in the operating room for tracheostomy, and my mother and I were waiting outside the OR. The operation was successful, and my father was brought to his room after his recovery time. When my father got well, he informed us that while he was being operated on, he saw himself detaching from his body, which was lying on the operating table with the attending physicians and attendants doing the operation procedures. Then he felt he was moving outside the operating room, and he saw my mother and me sitting on the bench just outside the OR. He even saw my mother crying at that time. How could this be attributed to the brain function, per se?

My neighbor was suffering from a stroke during the day when he saw himself detaching from his body, and he passed out. Suddenly, he was being pushed up gradually. He saw the roof of their house when he was about the height of an electric post. He also saw his sons and relatives outside their house. My father and my neighbor were two of the many people I encountered and talked to about this phenomenon of soul travel.

[POI]

The Almighty God alone is the absolute basis of truth in everything, no other else, not even actual research of the learned, per se.

Following up another baseless assertion, to back up the previous baseless assertion, does your pleading no favors.

My father was hospitalized when I was 21 years old. He was in the operating room for tracheostomy, and my mother and I were waiting outside the OR. The operation was successful, and my father was brought to his room after his recovery time. When my father got well, he informed us that while he was being operated on, he saw himself detaching from his body, which was lying on the operating table with the attending physicians and attendants doing the operation procedures. Then he felt he was moving outside the operating room, and he saw my mother and me sitting on the bench just outside the OR. He even saw my mother crying at that time. How could this be attributed to the brain function, per se?

Because sitting in the waiting room, anxious and crying, is what most normal people do when their loved one is in the OR undergoing a serious procedure. It takes little, in the imagination department, and very low coincidence, for your father to have dreamed of this scenario. Such similar studies have also been conducted, with no evidence that any actual out-of-body experiences ever happened.

Several studies designed to test out-of-body experiences (OBEs) in operating rooms (ORs) and emergency rooms have failed to validate claims of consciousness detached from the body. The most significant efforts, known as the AWARE studies, did not produce evidence that patients could see hidden targets placed to test for this phenomenon.

My neighbor was suffering from a stroke during the day when he saw himself detaching from his body, and he passed out. Suddenly, he was being pushed up gradually. He saw the roof of their house when he was about the height of an electric post. He also saw his sons and relatives outside their house. My father and my neighbor were two of the many people I encountered and talked to about this phenomenon of soul travel.

Again, isn't it funny how he recalls both things and people that he already knew about

[William]

POI (along with most materialists) overreaches re what science shows, conflating interpretation of evidence with “what science has shown us.”

POI’s post commits a common but significant overreach: conflating what the evidence shows (correlation between brain activity and subjective experience) with a particular metaphysical interpretation of that evidence (therefore, no mindfulness without brain is involved).

The leap POI (materialism) makes is from correlation (A happens with B) to causation/exclusion (B explains A completely, so no other cause is possible). That’s a philosophical stance - materialism or reductive physicalism - NOT a finding of fMRI or EEG.

Science can show that when someone reports an OBE, specific brain regions are active. It cannot show that no aspect of consciousness left the body, because that would require measuring something hard to capture with current physical instruments - a category error. The claim “dreams are internally generated mental states, not a departure of consciousness” is a restatement of the materialist interpretation, not a novel empirical discovery.

Also, OBE may be the incorrect label for such experiences. What may be occurring (which gives the experiencer the sense that they have left their body) is that their consciousness enters a consciousness field, made possible because the body is temporarily disabled from being the thing which ordinarily holds the mind within the parameter of the body.

More science is needed.

[OneJack]

The Almighty God alone is the absolute basis of truth in everything, no other else, not even actual research of the learned, per se.

Following up another baseless assertion, to back up the previous baseless assertion, does your pleading no favors.

My father was hospitalized when I was 21 years old. He was in the operating room for tracheostomy, and my mother and I were waiting outside the OR. The operation was successful, and my father was brought to his room after his recovery time. When my father got well, he informed us that while he was being operated on, he saw himself detaching from his body, which was lying on the operating table with the attending physicians and attendants doing the operation procedures. Then he felt he was moving outside the operating room, and he saw my mother and me sitting on the bench just outside the OR. He even saw my mother crying at that time. How could this be attributed to the brain function, per se?

Because sitting in the waiting room, anxious and crying, is what most normal people do when their loved one is in the OR undergoing a serious procedure. It takes little, in the imagination department, and very low coincidence, for your father to have dreamed of this scenario. Such similar studies have also been conducted, with no evidence that any actual out-of-body experiences ever happened.

Several studies designed to test out-of-body experiences (OBEs) in operating rooms (ORs) and emergency rooms have failed to validate claims of consciousness detached from the body. The most significant efforts, known as the AWARE studies, did not produce evidence that patients could see hidden targets placed to test for this phenomenon.

My neighbor was suffering from a stroke during the day when he saw himself detaching from his body, and he passed out. Suddenly, he was being pushed up gradually. He saw the roof of their house when he was about the height of an electric post. He also saw his sons and relatives outside their house. My father and my neighbor were two of the many people I encountered and talked to about this phenomenon of soul travel.

Again, isn't it funny how he recalls both things and people that he already knew about

You don't understand, or you truly persist in playing [as if you were] God in every issue, knowing everything. How could the doctors see the spirit of my father leaving/detaching from his body on the operating table, as in the case of my father, or in the bed, as in the case of my friend, who, when he woke up one day and was about to head out of his room, saw his body left alone in his bed. Out of great fear, he hurriedly got back to his body. There are many more instances for many people, but two or three are enough to prove that we all have our own spirit.