Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity Part 1

[SiNcE_1985]

.

No excuses, Jesus is God.

We are gonna deal with these Trinity-Proof texts, one by one....using Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) own New World's Translation, while I use the New King James Version (NKJV)...and we are gonna expose their faulty NWT, as needed.

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Lets begin with Isa 40:3..

Isa 40:3
NKJV Isa 40:3 ”The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
NWT Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God.

Now, as you can see, in comparison, both the NKJV and the NWT reads the same.

It is commanded that a clear path is made for God (Lord, Jehovah), because he is coming through!!

Ok, now, lets look at Malachi 3:1..

NKJV Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

NWT Mal 3:1  “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.

Virtually the same message, the Lord is coming...and the path is being cleared for him.

The significance? This is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus....and this messenger who clears the path for him, is John the Baptist.

How do we know?

Because, in Mark 1:1-8...

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in [a]the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
3 “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The implication is simple, Jesus is God.

Even in JW's own NWT Bible, it is said that the path (Isa 40:3) is being made clear for Jehovah/God.

The author of Mark connects the subject of the cleared path in the book of Isaiah (who is identified as Jehovah/God), to the subject of the path in his own book (who is identified as Jesus).

This is irrefutable evidence of the fact that; Jesus is God.

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #239]

Jesus said--( John 17:3)This means Eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and knowing the one he sent forth Jesus Christ.
No trinitarian on Gods Earth knows the Father as THE ONLY TRUE GOD--they will all lose because they will not listen to Jesus.

[face2face]

We are discussing about 1 John 5:11, I colored blue above. Do the text says "eternal life for us" or for Jesus?
So, who has that life in 1 John 5:11?

John 14:6 answers you question.

We, including Christ, will have received their life from God, we do not possess it inherently or independently!!!

So:

God has life inherently (by nature, self-existing).
Angels and Christ (in his glorified state) have life derivatively—granted to them by the Father.

Read these quotes with care.

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).
Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

Can you see why and how Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep? You will also see how high God exalted His Son in raising him from the dead and blessing him with Life Eternal. The first of his brothers!

For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he (Jesus) is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name (God's Name) to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” Hebrews 2:11-12

You quote John 14:6, Yes, God gives us eternal life through Jesus. What had Jesus said?
He is the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Himself.
Remember the Father had said that eternal life is in His Son Jesus in 1 John 5:11. An honest answer to the question below will confirm that the Father words are truth but a dishonest answer you will make the Father a liar? Yes or no.
So now, who had the eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

Jhn 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Therefore you agree Jesus is not God as God gave him Life.

Why evade my question? again You quote John 14:6, Yes, God gives us eternal life through Jesus. What had Jesus said?
He is the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Himself.
Remember the Father had said that eternal life is in His Son Jesus in 1 John 5:11. An honest answer to the question below will confirm that the Father words are truth but a dishonest answer you will make the Father a liar? Yes or no.
So now, who had the eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

You openly quote that God Himself alone has life and that the Saints and Christ have been given this life and yet you still resist?

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. John 5:26,27

Jesus cannot be God if he has been granted life by his Father!

F2F

[Difflugia]

Jesus said--( John 17:3)This means Eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and knowing the one he sent forth Jesus Christ.

That's not what John 17:3 says, though. It says:
"This is eternal life: that they would know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND THE ONE YOU HAVE SENT, JESUS CHRIST."

No trinitarian on Gods Earth knows the Father as THE ONLY TRUE GOD--they will all lose because they will not listen to Jesus.

I suspect that you'll have a harder time listening to Jesus than any trinitarians when you, yourself change the words he spoke.

[servant1]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #243]


I said 100% what Jesus said at John 17:3--He calls the one who sent him -THE ONLY TRUE GOD=the Father-- He warned you that you wouldn't know him-John 15:20-21--that is why FEW will find the road that leads off into life. It takes believing Jesus over the error filled and altered translations.

[Difflugia]

I said 100% what Jesus said at John 17:3--He calls the one who sent him -THE ONLY TRUE GOD=the Father--

You said 110% what Jesus said; you added an extra "knowing" to resolve the uncomfortable ambiguity about whether John's Jesus is calling the Father and himself the same person.

He warned you that you wouldn't know him-John 15:20-21--that is why FEW will find the road that leads off into life. It takes believing Jesus over the error filled and altered translations.

What is it when you add words to what Jesus said? Is that "error filled" or "altered?"

[servant1]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #245]

Many translations use different words but mean the same thing at many spots in Gods bible. Some have downright errors translated in. Example--I am that i am does not translate from the Hebrew in the OT it translates-i will be what i will be.

[A Freeman]

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Isaiah 40:3-5
40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the "I AM", make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
40:4 Every "valley" shall be exalted, and every "mountain" and "hill" shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
40:5 And the glory of the "I AM" shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the "I AM" hath spoken [it].

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send My messenger (Elias/John the Baptist - Luke 1:17; Matt. 11:14; 17:12), and he shall prepare the way before Me (John 1:15, 23; Sura 3:39): and the Lord, Whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple, even the messenger of The Covenant (Eze. 34:25 - Jesus; Matt. 26:28; Sura 16:91), whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts.

Mark 1:1-8
1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Christ Jesus, the Son OF God;
1:2 As it is written in the Prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye The Way of the Lord, make His paths straight.
1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
1:6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh One mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

NONE of the above passages directly or by implication tell us that Jesus is/was God.

There are over 50 references in the Gospel accounts that tell us Christ (the Firstborn/First-created Son OF God, Who is The Messenger of The Covenant) was SENT by God.

Matthew (3): 10:40, 15:24, 21:37

Mark (2): 9:37, 12:6

Luke (6): 4:18, 4:26, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16, 20:13

John (41): 3:17, 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5:38, 6:29, 6:38, 6:39, 6:40, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16, 7:28, 7:29, 7:33, 8:7, 8:9, 8:17, 8:20, 8:33, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44, 12:45, 12:49, 13:16, 13:20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3, 17:18, 17:21, 17:23, 17:25, 20:21

-------

Further into Mark we find God telling us the following:

Mark 9:7 And there was a "Cloud" that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the "Cloud", saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Exactly as God said to Moses and the Israelites about The Messenger/Angel of The Covenant

Exodus 23:20-23
23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in The Way (ch. 18:20; Deut. 11:28; 31:29; John 14:6), and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice (Mark 9:7), provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name [is] in him.
23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23:23 For Mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

"MY NAME IS IN HIM".

The name/title "Jesus" literally means "The 'I AM' Saves". We reduce it to "Saviour", but it is Christ's God that is saving us THROUGH His Anointed One.

Only someone who denies the REAL, SPIRITUAL Father-Son relationship between God and His Anointed One (Christ) could come to the erroneous conclusion that ANY of the verses cited above are inferring that Jesus is/was allegedly God, a claim that Jesus NEVER made.

Instead, we have Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, telling us on multiple occasions that his God and Father is our God and Father (which art in heaven):

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? (Eno. 89:20; Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Sura 4:157-8.)

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

And what does Scripture tell us about those who deny the true, spiritual Father-Son relationship between God and Christ?

"He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." - 1 John 2:22

So it's not surprising that antichrists are attempting to teach others that Jesus is/was God when no such claim was ever made anywhere in Scripture, either directly or by inference/implication.

John 8:42-45 KJV
8:42 Jesus said unto them, IF God WERE your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came FROM God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me.
8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my Word.
8:44 Ye are of [YOUR] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the Truth, because there is no Truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father (inventor) of it.
8:45 And because I tell [you] the Truth, ye believe me not.

[Capbook]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #245]

Many translations use different words but mean the same thing at many spots in Gods bible. Some have downright errors translated in. Example--I am that i am does not translate from the Hebrew in the OT it translates-i will be what i will be.

It's because JWs heavy use of paraphrase translations that changed the original Bible words that cannot be look upon through Bible lexicons to know the meaning of original Bible words at the time it was used. Without it a possibility of misguidance.
Try use literal word for word translations that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original languages and you will see the difference.

[servant1]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #245]

Many translations use different words but mean the same thing at many spots in Gods bible. Some have downright errors translated in. Example--I am that i am does not translate from the Hebrew in the OT it translates-i will be what i will be.

It's because JWs heavy use of paraphrase translations that changed the original Bible words that cannot be look upon through Bible lexicons to know the meaning of original Bible words at the time it was used. Without it a possibility of misguidance.
Try use literal word for word translations that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original languages and you will see the difference.

The Hebrew scholars say i will be what i will be is correct.