Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity Part 1

[SiNcE_1985]

.

No excuses, Jesus is God.

We are gonna deal with these Trinity-Proof texts, one by one....using Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) own New World's Translation, while I use the New King James Version (NKJV)...and we are gonna expose their faulty NWT, as needed.

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Lets begin with Isa 40:3..

Isa 40:3
NKJV Isa 40:3 ”The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
NWT Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God.

Now, as you can see, in comparison, both the NKJV and the NWT reads the same.

It is commanded that a clear path is made for God (Lord, Jehovah), because he is coming through!!

Ok, now, lets look at Malachi 3:1..

NKJV Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

NWT Mal 3:1  “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.

Virtually the same message, the Lord is coming...and the path is being cleared for him.

The significance? This is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus....and this messenger who clears the path for him, is John the Baptist.

How do we know?

Because, in Mark 1:1-8...

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in [a]the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
3 “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The implication is simple, Jesus is God.

Even in JW's own NWT Bible, it is said that the path (Isa 40:3) is being made clear for Jehovah/God.

The author of Mark connects the subject of the cleared path in the book of Isaiah (who is identified as Jehovah/God), to the subject of the path in his own book (who is identified as Jesus).

This is irrefutable evidence of the fact that; Jesus is God.

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

[face2face]

No, my question was who has the "eternal life" in 1 John 5:11?
Hard to answer?

1Jn 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

If you believe that Jesus already possessed life within himself, that he had a divine, eternal nature then how could that life be something that was given to Him? You can’t be given something you already inherently have. If Christ always possessed life in himself, then it couldn’t have been granted to him.

To maintain this belief, you would almost have to align with the Jehovah's Witnesses’ view: that Jesus existed in some pre-human form, such as an angel or some immortal being, before being given life in himself. But this contradicts Trinitarian doctrine, which teaches that Jesus was eternally equal with God and always had this divine life.

So, your statement seems to undermine the Trinity itself since if life was given to Christ, he couldn’t have always had it, nor could he have been equal with the Father from eternity. The logic simply doesn’t hold unless you reinterpret or reject one of these positions.

Would you like to know how trinitarian theologians have handled this issue?

What a misinterpretation?
Does the text mentioned the word "given to Jesus" there? It is given to us.
Maybe you read your paraphrase translation again.
Jesus had said, "I am the way, the truth and the life".

I assumed you knew your Bible or at least the subject you are discussing.

For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he (God) has granted the Son to have life in himself, Jn 5:26.

This offers you a number of difficult dilemmas to work through.

F2F

We are discussing about 1 John 5:11, I colored blue above. Do the text says "eternal life for us" or for Jesus?
So, who has that life in 1 John 5:11?

John 14:6 answers you question.

We, including Christ, will have received their life from God, we do not possess it inherently or independently!!!

So:

God has life inherently (by nature, self-existing).
Angels and Christ (in his glorified state) have life derivatively—granted to them by the Father.

Read these quotes with care.

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).
Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

Can you see why and how Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep? You will also see how high God exalted His Son in raising him from the dead and blessing him with Life Eternal. The first of his brothers!

For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he (Jesus) is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name (God's Name) to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” Hebrews 2:11-12

[Capbook]

If you believe that Jesus already possessed life within himself, that he had a divine, eternal nature then how could that life be something that was given to Him? You can’t be given something you already inherently have. If Christ always possessed life in himself, then it couldn’t have been granted to him.

To maintain this belief, you would almost have to align with the Jehovah's Witnesses’ view: that Jesus existed in some pre-human form, such as an angel or some immortal being, before being given life in himself. But this contradicts Trinitarian doctrine, which teaches that Jesus was eternally equal with God and always had this divine life.

So, your statement seems to undermine the Trinity itself since if life was given to Christ, he couldn’t have always had it, nor could he have been equal with the Father from eternity. The logic simply doesn’t hold unless you reinterpret or reject one of these positions.

Would you like to know how trinitarian theologians have handled this issue?

What a misinterpretation?
Does the text mentioned the word "given to Jesus" there? It is given to us.
Maybe you read your paraphrase translation again.
Jesus had said, "I am the way, the truth and the life".

I assumed you knew your Bible or at least the subject you are discussing.

For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he (God) has granted the Son to have life in himself, Jn 5:26.

This offers you a number of difficult dilemmas to work through.

F2F

We are discussing about 1 John 5:11, I colored blue above. Do the text says "eternal life for us" or for Jesus?
So, who has that life in 1 John 5:11?

John 14:6 answers you question.

We, including Christ, will have received their life from God, we do not possess it inherently or independently!!!

So:

God has life inherently (by nature, self-existing).
Angels and Christ (in his glorified state) have life derivatively—granted to them by the Father.

Read these quotes with care.

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).
Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

Can you see why and how Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep? You will also see how high God exalted His Son in raising him from the dead and blessing him with Life Eternal. The first of his brothers!

For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he (Jesus) is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name (God's Name) to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” Hebrews 2:11-12

You quote John 14:6, Yes, God gives us eternal life through Jesus. What had Jesus said?
He is the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Himself.
Remember the Father had said that eternal life is in His Son Jesus in 1 John 5:11. An honest answer to the question below will confirm that the Father words are truth but a dishonest answer you will make the Father a liar? Yes or no.
So now, who had the eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

Jhn 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

[face2face]

What a misinterpretation?
Does the text mentioned the word "given to Jesus" there? It is given to us.
Maybe you read your paraphrase translation again.
Jesus had said, "I am the way, the truth and the life".

I assumed you knew your Bible or at least the subject you are discussing.

For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he (God) has granted the Son to have life in himself, Jn 5:26.

This offers you a number of difficult dilemmas to work through.

F2F

We are discussing about 1 John 5:11, I colored blue above. Do the text says "eternal life for us" or for Jesus?
So, who has that life in 1 John 5:11?

John 14:6 answers you question.

We, including Christ, will have received their life from God, we do not possess it inherently or independently!!!

So:

God has life inherently (by nature, self-existing).
Angels and Christ (in his glorified state) have life derivatively—granted to them by the Father.

Read these quotes with care.

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).
Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

Can you see why and how Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep? You will also see how high God exalted His Son in raising him from the dead and blessing him with Life Eternal. The first of his brothers!

For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he (Jesus) is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name (God's Name) to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” Hebrews 2:11-12

You quote John 14:6, Yes, God gives us eternal life through Jesus. What had Jesus said?
He is the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Himself.
Remember the Father had said that eternal life is in His Son Jesus in 1 John 5:11. An honest answer to the question below will confirm that the Father words are truth but a dishonest answer you will make the Father a liar? Yes or no.
So now, who had the eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

Jhn 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Therefore you agree Jesus is not God as God gave him Life.

[Capbook]

I assumed you knew your Bible or at least the subject you are discussing.

For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he (God) has granted the Son to have life in himself, Jn 5:26.

This offers you a number of difficult dilemmas to work through.

F2F

We are discussing about 1 John 5:11, I colored blue above. Do the text says "eternal life for us" or for Jesus?
So, who has that life in 1 John 5:11?

John 14:6 answers you question.

We, including Christ, will have received their life from God, we do not possess it inherently or independently!!!

So:

God has life inherently (by nature, self-existing).
Angels and Christ (in his glorified state) have life derivatively—granted to them by the Father.

Read these quotes with care.

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).
Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

Can you see why and how Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep? You will also see how high God exalted His Son in raising him from the dead and blessing him with Life Eternal. The first of his brothers!

For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he (Jesus) is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name (God's Name) to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” Hebrews 2:11-12

You quote John 14:6, Yes, God gives us eternal life through Jesus. What had Jesus said?
He is the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Himself.
Remember the Father had said that eternal life is in His Son Jesus in 1 John 5:11. An honest answer to the question below will confirm that the Father words are truth but a dishonest answer you will make the Father a liar? Yes or no.
So now, who had the eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

Jhn 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Therefore you agree Jesus is not God as God gave him Life.

Why evade my question? again You quote John 14:6, Yes, God gives us eternal life through Jesus. What had Jesus said?
He is the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Himself.
Remember the Father had said that eternal life is in His Son Jesus in 1 John 5:11. An honest answer to the question below will confirm that the Father words are truth but a dishonest answer you will make the Father a liar? Yes or no.
So now, who had the eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #229]


Rev 14 is about the little flock( Luke 12:32)= 144,000 bought from the Earth= to sit on thrones( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)---- not the great crowd( Rev 7:9) of other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that fold.
The covenant of the Lords supper was made to those who will sit on thrones( Luke 22:29-30) Only these partake, not the great crowd who will remain on Earth( Matt 5:5,,Psalm 37:11,29) Prov 2:21-22)

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #232]



No one comes to the Father but through me= The Father is ones destination=John 4:22-24-- A true follower does this Jesus taught--How many days of your life has your heart instructed your mind to accomplish John 4:22-24? A true follower does it 24/7-365-- The answer= 0. Trinitarians are taught to stop at Jesus, its all about Jesus to a trinitarian, where as to Jesus its all about his Father. Thus one who follows Jesus footsteps its all about the Father to them as well.
Jesus accepts no glory from men. John 5:41.

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #232]



No one comes to the Father but through me= The Father is ones destination=John 4:22-24-- A true follower does this Jesus taught--How many days of your life has your heart instructed your mind to accomplish John 4:22-24? A true follower does it 24/7-365-- The answer= 0. Trinitarians are taught to stop at Jesus, its all about Jesus to a trinitarian, where as to Jesus its all about his Father. Thus one who follows Jesus footsteps its all about the Father to them as well.
Jesus accepts no glory from men. John 5:41.

At least you've learn now your lesson of not using the Latinized alteration.

You tried to reply to my Post#232, but never answer the question below.
Hope you'll face the question straight and answer honestly.

Yes, God gives us eternal life through Jesus. What had Jesus said?
He is the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Himself.
Remember the Father had said that eternal life is in His Son Jesus in 1 John 5:11. An honest answer to the question below will confirm that the Father words are truth but a dishonest answer you will make the Father a liar? Yes or no.
So now, who had the eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #237]


By obeying Jesus= living now to do his Fathers will( Matt 7:21) over self in this satan ruled system is how one gains entrance into Gods kingdom. That will = Man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY utterance from God=OT-NT learned applied and obeyed.( barring some of the Mosaic law we are no longer under that covenant)

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #237]


By obeying Jesus= living now to do his Fathers will( Matt 7:21) over self in this satan ruled system is how one gains entrance into Gods kingdom. That will = Man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY utterance from God=OT-NT learned applied and obeyed.( barring some of the Mosaic law we are no longer under that covenant)

You tried to reply to my Post#232, now Post#237, but never answer the question below.
Hope you'll face the question straight and answer honestly.

Yes, God gives us eternal life through Jesus. What had Jesus said?
He is the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Himself.
Remember the Father had said that eternal life is in His Son Jesus in 1 John 5:11. An honest answer to the question below will confirm that the Father words are truth but a dishonest answer you will make the Father a liar? Yes or no.
So now, who had the eternal life in 1 John 5:20?

[Revelations won]

Dear SINcE_1985,

Just wanted to thank you for your OP. Very well presented! I certainly agree with you on your points made.


Just a comment regarding the trinity:

Since the trinity is never mentioned in the Bible and since examining its development and forced decree by a roman emperor, which included capital punishment for disbelievers. Also nothing is more obvious than this very man made philosophy mingled with scripture by its very nature is utterly incomprehensible. This doctrine is in direct opposition to that which Christ testified in:

John 17:
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.