Did the Father have the power to raise or elevate his Son Jesus to the same rank as himself? Let us call the highest rank in heaven "the rank of God."
Hebrews 1:8, The Father said of his Son Jesus, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom." Verse 9, "Therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of Gladness above thy fellows." Verse 10, "And thou LORD (the Father calling his Son Jehovah), in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of your hands."
And is there the same degree of likeness, similarity, and dignity between the Father and Son? If so, then the Son can be called God because it's the Father's prerogative. And if it is the Father's privilege, who are we to deny it?
Equality between the Father and Son
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #11I quote the original rendering of the verse in Hebrew from the Tanakh.tygger2 wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 4:21 pm [Replying to Capbook in post #6]
Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:
“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”
University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.
An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”
And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”
The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”
NSB - God is your throne
Mace - "God is thy throne….”
Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’
Another world-acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay,
“world-renowned Scottish New Testament interpreter, was noted as a profound scholar and a writer of extraordinary gifts .... He was the minister of Trinity Church, Renfrew, Scotland, and, later, Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow.”
Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”
Noted trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne”/“thy throne is God” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339, Word Pictures in the New Testament.
The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).
Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”
English verses are translations, maybe paraphrase.
And also you quote opinions of men.
Post the Bible verse itself in Hebrew, so we can compare.
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #12Is your quote from the Hebrew Bible? The Tanakh?tygger2 wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 5:18 pm Psalms
45
JPS, 1985
Source
Translation
Source with Translation
....
Psalm 45
לַמְנַצֵּ֣חַ עַל־שֹׁ֭שַׁנִּים לִבְנֵי־קֹ֑רַח מַ֝שְׂכִּ֗יל שִׁ֣יר יְדִידֹֽת׃
For the leader; on shoshannim.-a Of the Korahites. A maskil. A love song.
רָ֘חַ֤שׁ לִבִּ֨י ׀ דָּ֘בָ֤ר ט֗וֹב אֹמֵ֣ר אָ֭נִי מַעֲשַׂ֣י לְמֶ֑לֶךְ לְ֝שׁוֹנִ֗י עֵ֤ט ׀ סוֹפֵ֬ר מָהִֽיר׃
My heart is astir with gracious words;
I speak my poem to a king;
my tongue is the pen of an expert scribe.
יׇפְיָפִ֡יתָ מִבְּנֵ֬י אָדָ֗ם ה֣וּצַק חֵ֭ן בְּשִׂפְתוֹתֶ֑יךָ עַל־כֵּ֤ן בֵּרַכְךָ֖ אֱלֹהִ֣ים לְעוֹלָֽם׃
You are fairer than all men;
your speech is endowed with grace;
rightly has God given you an eternal blessing.
חֲגֽוֹר־חַרְבְּךָ֣ עַל־יָרֵ֣ךְ גִּבּ֑וֹר ה֝וֹדְךָ֗ וַהֲדָרֶֽךָ׃
Gird your sword upon your thigh, O hero,
in your splendor and glory;
וַהֲדָ֬רְךָ֨ ׀ צְלַ֬ח רְכַ֗ב עַֽל־דְּבַר־אֱ֭מֶת וְעַנְוָה־צֶ֑דֶק וְתוֹרְךָ֖ נוֹרָא֣וֹת יְמִינֶֽךָ׃
in your glory, win success;
ride on in the cause of truth and meekness and right;
and let your right hand lead you to awesome deeds.-a
חִצֶּ֗יךָ שְׁנ֫וּנִ֥ים עַ֭מִּים תַּחְתֶּ֣יךָ יִפְּל֑וּ בְּ֝לֵ֗ב אוֹיְבֵ֥י הַמֶּֽלֶךְ׃
Your arrows, sharpened,
[pierce] the breast of the king’s enemies;
peoples fall at your feet.-b
כִּסְאֲךָ֣ אֱ֭לֹהִים עוֹלָ֣ם וָעֶ֑ד שֵׁ֥בֶט מִ֝ישֹׁ֗ר שֵׁ֣בֶט מַלְכוּתֶֽךָ׃
Your divine throne-c is everlasting;
your royal scepter is a scepter of equity.
The footnote for this refers to 1 Chron. 29:23.
Solomon successfully took over the throne of the LORD as king instead of his father David
[Replying to Capbook in post #6]
I check it and find that its in the same wordings with what I posted, Tygger2 can be read from right to left.
I opted options to read it from left to right, the difference is the one from Tygger2 has no Strong numbers that we can check the translation.
The Hebrew of the both posted are the same. The translation is not.
Tygger2 can you find resources that have Strong numbers? Because paraphrase translations don't have Strong numbers as they change the original Bible words.
כִּסְאֲךָ֣ אֱ֭לֹהִים עוֹלָ֣ם וָעֶ֑ד שֵׁ֥בֶט מִ֝ישֹׁ֗ר שֵׁ֣בֶט מַלְכוּתֶֽךָ׃
Psa 45:7 כסאך H3678 אלהים H430 עולם H5769 ועד H5703 שׁבט H7626 מישׁר H4334 שׁבט H7626 מלכותך׃ H4438
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, H3678 O God, H430 is for ever H5769 and ever: H5703 the sceptre H7626 of thy kingdom H4438 is a right H4334 sceptre. H7626
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #13John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
So we have it from Christ, The Son of God, that He is very obviously NOT equal to His Father.
And, of course, we also have it from Christ, the Son of God, that His Father IS His God, just as His Father is our God.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
These are UNAMBIGUOUS verses that provide absolutely no wiggle room for anyone to falsely claim that the Son is allegedly equal to the Father, or that the Son IS God (instead of the Son OF God, as Christ also plainly stated over 50 times in the Gospel accounts).
So we have it from Christ, The Son of God, that He is very obviously NOT equal to His Father.
And, of course, we also have it from Christ, the Son of God, that His Father IS His God, just as His Father is our God.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
These are UNAMBIGUOUS verses that provide absolutely no wiggle room for anyone to falsely claim that the Son is allegedly equal to the Father, or that the Son IS God (instead of the Son OF God, as Christ also plainly stated over 50 times in the Gospel accounts).
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #14All Bible versions are translations. If they weren't even you could not understand them. Do you speak Hebrew?Capbook wrote: ↑Fri May 09, 2025 5:11 amI quote the original rendering of the verse in Hebrew from the Tanakh.tygger2 wrote: ↑Wed May 07, 2025 4:21 pm [Replying to Capbook in post #6]
Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:
“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”
University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.
An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”
And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”
The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”
NSB - God is your throne
Mace - "God is thy throne….”
Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’
Another world-acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay,
“world-renowned Scottish New Testament interpreter, was noted as a profound scholar and a writer of extraordinary gifts .... He was the minister of Trinity Church, Renfrew, Scotland, and, later, Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow.”
Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”
Noted trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne”/“thy throne is God” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339, Word Pictures in the New Testament.
The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).
Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”
English verses are translations, maybe paraphrase.
And also you quote opinions of men.
Post the Bible verse itself in Hebrew, so we can compare.
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #15Many struggle with the concept that David knew exactly who Christ is, because David lived hundreds of years (~900-1000 years) before Jesus was born.
Christ is the Eldest/Firstborn Son of God, created by God in His first act of creation (Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14).
Jesus was the Son of Man (born of the virgin human body of Mary, in Bethlehem).
David called Christ his "Lord", and then referred to Father (God) as his Lord's LORD, just as Paul later did.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV) The LORD (God, our heavenly Father) said unto my Lord (Christ), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Paul went on to actually quote Psalm 110:1 as well, and to again make it crystal clear that God is ABOVE (greater than) Christ, just as Jesus truthfully said.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28
15:22 For as in Adam (humans) all die, even so in Christ shall all (spirit-Beings) be made alive (by being born again - John 3:3-7).
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then [cometh] The End, when he shall have delivered up The Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For He (Father/God) must reign, till He (God) hath put all enemies under his (Christ's) feet (Ps. 110:1).
15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
15:27 For He (God) hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet. But when He (God) saith all things are put under [him (Christ), it is] manifest that He (God) IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under him (Christ).
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son (Christ) also himself be subject unto Him (God) that put all things under him (God), that God may be all in all.
Christ is the Eldest/Firstborn Son of God, created by God in His first act of creation (Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14).
Jesus was the Son of Man (born of the virgin human body of Mary, in Bethlehem).
David called Christ his "Lord", and then referred to Father (God) as his Lord's LORD, just as Paul later did.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV) The LORD (God, our heavenly Father) said unto my Lord (Christ), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Paul went on to actually quote Psalm 110:1 as well, and to again make it crystal clear that God is ABOVE (greater than) Christ, just as Jesus truthfully said.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28
15:22 For as in Adam (humans) all die, even so in Christ shall all (spirit-Beings) be made alive (by being born again - John 3:3-7).
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then [cometh] The End, when he shall have delivered up The Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For He (Father/God) must reign, till He (God) hath put all enemies under his (Christ's) feet (Ps. 110:1).
15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
15:27 For He (God) hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet. But when He (God) saith all things are put under [him (Christ), it is] manifest that He (God) IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under him (Christ).
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son (Christ) also himself be subject unto Him (God) that put all things under him (God), that God may be all in all.
Last edited by A Freeman on Fri May 09, 2025 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #16The differences referenced in the previous post between the human Jesus (Son of Man) and the Christ the immortal spiritual-Being and firstborn/first-created Son of God, are the subject of the Christ's test of the politicians:-
Matthew 22:41-46
22:41 While the politicians were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
22:44 The "I AM" said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is He his son?
22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].
They didn't answer Jesus, nor ask any further questions because they didn't understand the difference between the spirit (a spiritual-Being/soul) and the flesh (the mortal human "vessel" that we incarnate).
Matthew 22:41-46
22:41 While the politicians were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
22:44 The "I AM" said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is He his son?
22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].
They didn't answer Jesus, nor ask any further questions because they didn't understand the difference between the spirit (a spiritual-Being/soul) and the flesh (the mortal human "vessel" that we incarnate).
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #17I can assure you that it does not. Simply quoting a few translations that render the text one way doesn't even scratch the surface of the issues with this passage.onewithhim wrote: ↑Thu May 08, 2025 3:28 pm
This research should satisfy anyone concerned about the Hebrew language and what it says regarding this issue.
This is simply wrong, on both counts.onewithhim wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 7:07 pm
The writer of Hebrews would have copied that verse verbatim, and there is no room for translating it as "your throne O God."
First, virtually every scholar who has ever written about Psalm 45, whether they are Jewish, Christian, or of no faith in particular -- and there is a lot of scholarship on this particular passage -- acknowledges that the word elohim in vs. 6 (in Hebrew it's verse 7) can certainly be a vocative ("O God").
They also point out that the targums, the ancient Jewish Aramaic paraphrases of the Bible, understood elohim here as a vocative ("O God"). All the way through the Middle Ages we have Jewish exegetes -- including, prominently, Rashi -- who understood it similarly, although they took it as referring to the king as a judge.
The various ancient Greek translations of the Hebrew scriptures also appear to render elohim here as a vocative. The LXX, Symmachus, and Theodotion render it as ho theos, which is often how the vocative is rendered, while Aquila renders it as thee, which is clearly vocative, as Jerome points out (see his Letter 65).
In fact, Abraham Cohen, a prominent Jewish scholar from the middle of the last century, in the Socoro biblical commentary series, notes here that "Thy throne, O God, appears to be the obvious translation" (The Psalms, pg. 141), but like other modern Jewish commentators, finds theological and contextual reasons to render it differently.
Your assertion that there is "no room for translating it as 'your throne O God'" is therefore obviously false.
Second, the author of Hebrews clearly didn't "copy" this quotation from the Hebrew text of Psalm 45. Rather, Hebrews 1:8 is a nearly verbatim quote from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:6 (in the LXX its numbered 44:7).
This is relevant to how we understand Hebrews 1:8 because the LXX rendering is, as I noted above, perhaps more indicative of a vocative ("O God"), although the rendering "God is your throne" is also grammatically possible, albeit rather awkward.
Psalm 45:6 (and Hebrews 1:8 with it) is, ultimately, a notoriously difficult passage to interpret, so we simply cannot say, as you just did, that one translation is correct and all others are impossible. That grossly misunderstands the issues here.
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #18Psalm 45:1-7 (with parenthetical inserts to plainly show who David is talking about)
45:1 <To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, for the sons of Korah, Maschil, A Song of loves.> My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue [is] the pen of a ready writer.
45:2 Thou (Christ) art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever*.
45:3 Gird thy (Christ's) sword upon [thy] thigh, O [most] mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
45:4 And in thy (Christ's) majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness [and] righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
45:5 Thine (Christ's) arrows [are] sharp in the heart of the King's (God's) enemies; [whereby] the people fall under thee.
45:6 (As a humble and obedient servant Christ said:) Thy Throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy (God's) Kingdom [is] a Right sceptre (Matt. 6:10).
45:7 Thou (Christ) lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy (Christ's) God, hath anointed thee (Christ) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows (the rest of the angels/Sons of God).
Psalm 45:2 makes it crystal clear that this is a psalm praising Christ, whom David refers to as "my Lord" (Psalm 110:1)
Christ, Who is NOT human, is fairer than the children of men (both in appearance and in being just (Php. 2:9-11; John 5:22); renowned for being FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH (John 1:14). And is The One Whom God Anointed.
Compare Ps. 45:3 to Luke 19:27.
Compare Ps. 45:4 with Ps. 68:4; Php. 2:7-8; and Rev. 19:11
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Hebrews 1:8-9 is meant to be a direct quote of Psalm 45:6-7 above. Obviously God doesn't have a God, or He wouldn't be God (The Most High) by definition. And it is likewise obviously God Who anointed Christ (Christ means "The One Whom God Anointed), in part rewarding Christ for loving righteousness and hating wickedness (which is also why God has committed all judgment to Christ - John 5:22).
45:1 <To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, for the sons of Korah, Maschil, A Song of loves.> My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue [is] the pen of a ready writer.
45:2 Thou (Christ) art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever*.
45:3 Gird thy (Christ's) sword upon [thy] thigh, O [most] mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
45:4 And in thy (Christ's) majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness [and] righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
45:5 Thine (Christ's) arrows [are] sharp in the heart of the King's (God's) enemies; [whereby] the people fall under thee.
45:6 (As a humble and obedient servant Christ said:) Thy Throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy (God's) Kingdom [is] a Right sceptre (Matt. 6:10).
45:7 Thou (Christ) lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy (Christ's) God, hath anointed thee (Christ) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows (the rest of the angels/Sons of God).
Psalm 45:2 makes it crystal clear that this is a psalm praising Christ, whom David refers to as "my Lord" (Psalm 110:1)
Christ, Who is NOT human, is fairer than the children of men (both in appearance and in being just (Php. 2:9-11; John 5:22); renowned for being FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH (John 1:14). And is The One Whom God Anointed.
Compare Ps. 45:3 to Luke 19:27.
Compare Ps. 45:4 with Ps. 68:4; Php. 2:7-8; and Rev. 19:11
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Hebrews 1:8-9 is meant to be a direct quote of Psalm 45:6-7 above. Obviously God doesn't have a God, or He wouldn't be God (The Most High) by definition. And it is likewise obviously God Who anointed Christ (Christ means "The One Whom God Anointed), in part rewarding Christ for loving righteousness and hating wickedness (which is also why God has committed all judgment to Christ - John 5:22).
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #19Yes, the Father is greater, higher in rank and position to Jesus but that does not mean that Jesus is not God. That is what is called "relational subordination", they have different roles for the salvation of man but they are still the same in the nature of God.A Freeman wrote: ↑Fri May 09, 2025 11:35 am John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
So we have it from Christ, The Son of God, that He is very obviously NOT equal to His Father.
And, of course, we also have it from Christ, the Son of God, that His Father IS His God, just as His Father is our God.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
These are UNAMBIGUOUS verses that provide absolutely no wiggle room for anyone to falsely claim that the Son is allegedly equal to the Father, or that the Son IS God (instead of the Son OF God, as Christ also plainly stated over 50 times in the Gospel accounts).
The unambiguous verses that the Father words Himself said to the Son, your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
And there are two words "God" in the next verse, where the first refers to Jesus and the second refers to the Father. (Heb 1:8-9 and Psa 45:6-7).
Don't you believe the Father's words as truth or not?
I believe we have posted the original Hebrew of Psa 45:6 with corresponding Strong Concordance. Can you post the same?
From Jesus words Himself said that "all the Father had are mine," is it not blasphemy if Jesus is not God?
That is equality in the simple sense and unambiguous.
Note: All those verses are based from literal word for word Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original languages. And completely not from paraphrase translation without Strong Concordance a way to check the original Bible wordings through Bible lexicons.
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Re: Equality between the Father and Son
Post #20Of course it means that Jesus is NOT God. When did Jesus EVER claim to be God? Answer: NOWHERE.Capbook wrote: ↑Fri May 09, 2025 7:13 pmYes, the Father is greater, higher in rank and position to Jesus but that does not mean that Jesus is not God.A Freeman wrote: ↑Fri May 09, 2025 11:35 am John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
So we have it from Christ, The Son of God, that He is very obviously NOT equal to His Father.
And, of course, we also have it from Christ, the Son of God, that His Father IS His God, just as His Father is our God.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
These are UNAMBIGUOUS verses that provide absolutely no wiggle room for anyone to falsely claim that the Son is allegedly equal to the Father, or that the Son IS God (instead of the Son OF God, as Christ also plainly stated over 50 times in the Gospel accounts).
No, it isn't. Falsely claiming that "Jesus is God" would be more aptly named "ignorance of relationship subordination" because it requires one to ignore the true, SPIRITUAL Father-Son relationship between God and His Firstborn/First-CREATED Son: Prince Michael/Christ.
God doesn't divide Himself into two or three separate parts/individuals so that He can allegedly role play as (i.e. pretend to be) His own son. God is ONE (Deut. 6:4; Zech. 14:9; Mark 12:29; Sura 2:163). And ONE MEANS ONE; it does NOT mean 2=1 or 3=1, etc., as man-made doctrines and traditions have attempted to redefine God.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The "I AM" our God [is] ONE God:
Zechariah 14:9 And the "I AM" shall be King over all the earth: in that Day shall there be one "I AM", and His name ONE (not a trinity).
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord:
Sura 2:163. And your God is ONE God. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
That isn't "unambiguous" nor is it the Father saying that to the Son, is it? The above is an obvious and horrible mistranslation, in a vain attempt to support a man-made doctrine that satanically tries to divide God into different individuals, so that He can allegedly talk to Himself.
Hebrews 1:8-9 is meant to be a DIRECT QUOTE from Psalm 45:6-7, which is a Psalm David wrote about Christ his Lord (Psalm 110:1). It was Christ Who said of and to His Father:
Psalm 45:6 Thy Throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy Kingdom [is] a Right sceptre.
Which is why Christ's Father (Who IS God) said the following to Christ:
Psalm 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Does Father -- Who is THE One True God -- have a God? No. Does Christ have a God? Yes. Father IS His God, as Christ has repeatedly told us, both in the body of Jesus and out of the body of Jesus, when Christ gave His Revelation to John.
Christ, while in the body of Jesus:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, MY GOD MY GOD, why hast Thou forsaken me? (Eno. 89:20; Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Sura 4:157-8.)
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY FATHER, and your Father; AND [to] MY GOD, and your God.
And Christ after He ascended into heaven, i.e. while out of the body of Jesus:
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in The Temple of MY GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY GOD: and (I will write upon him) my NEW name.
And how could God have "fellows", as in fellow angels? You do realize that the TITLE "Christ" means "The One Whom God Anointed" (usually shortened to "The Anointed One") don't you?
No. The two references to "God" in the next verse are very obviously both to Father, to Whom Christ taught all of us to pray, just as Christ Himself does:
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name.
Isn't that a question you should be asking yourself?
Numbers 23:19 God [is] NOT a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?
(see also: 1 Samuel 15:29; Job 9:32; Hosea 11:9; John 4:24)
How many times did Jesus refer to himself as "the Son of Man" in the Gospel accounts? OVER 80 TIMES. So the ONLY way someone could pretend that Jesus is God is if they ignore both Father's Words and those that Jesus actually spoke in HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of verses, in a vain attempt to privately interpret one verse which has very obviously been mistranslated.
Just because you "believe" that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean you have correctly understood either Ps. 45:6-7 or Heb. 1:1-9. And who wrote "Strong Concordance"? God, or men?
Of course it isn't blasphemy, as Father GAVE everything to Christ, as Christ's INHERITANCE.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth.
John 5:19-20
5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do NOTHING of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that Himself doeth: and He will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He (God) hath appointed HEIR of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by The Word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His Majesty on high;
1:4 Being MADE so much better than the angels, as he hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they.
God clearly gave power to Christ. God clearly taught Christ everything Christ knows. God clearly doesn't "inherit" anything, as He created everything, including Prince Michael/Christ, God's Eldest/Firstborn Son.
It is, however, blasphemy to falsely claim that "Jesus (the human son of Mary) is God".
Romans 1:25 Who changed the Truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen.