Are God’s Blessings Permanently Tied to Lineage—or Conditional on Obedience?

[mms20102]

Hello everyone,


I’d like to explore a theme that appears repeatedly in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, yet rarely gets discussed head-on:

Does God’s blessing (or covenant) stay with a people forever simply because of their ancestry,
or does it hinge on their continued obedience to Him?


Why I think the question matters

• Justice & mercy. If God is perfectly just, it seems only fair that a rebellious nation could forfeit special privileges, while an obedient nation—whatever its pedigree—could be granted favor.

• Prophetic passages. Several texts appear to warn ancient Israel that disobedience would lead to blessings being removed or transferred.

• Continuity vs. continuity-plus-change. Christians, Jews, and Muslims each affirm God’s fidelity, yet differ on how He continues His plan when humans fail.

Relevant scriptures (in bite-sized form)

Blessing initially promised to Abraham’s two sons Genesis 17 : 20 (Ishmael); Genesis 17 : 21 (Isaac)
Blessing contingent on obedience Deuteronomy 28 : 1–2 / 15; Jeremiah 7 : 3–7
Warning of transfer Matthew 21 : 43

kingdom… taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruits

One God over all peoples Zechariah 14 : 9; Mark 12 : 29

The Lord our God is One Lord

Feel free to add other verses—these are just conversation starters.



Lastly three honest questions to the forum

1. Does Scripture anywhere say that Abraham’s non-Isaac line (e.g., through Ishmael) lost its blessing, or are we merely assuming so?
2. When Jesus speaks of the kingdom being “taken… and given to another nation,” do you read that as metaphorical, eschatological, or potentially literal?
3. If blessings are conditional, what criteria—in your view—would mark a people today as legitimate heirs of God’s covenant?



Ground rules for the thread

- Please keep replies focused on —texts and principles—, not personal labels.
- I’m genuinely interested in everyone’s viewpoint—Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Muslim, or skeptic.
- One point at a time keeps the conversation clear for readers.

Looking forward to learning from you all!

[A Freeman]

[Replying to mms20102 in post #1]

mms20102: I’d like to explore a theme that appears repeatedly in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, yet rarely gets discussed head-on:

Does God’s blessing (or covenant) stay with a people forever simply because of their ancestry, or does it hinge on their continued obedience to Him?

AF: God made an entirely unconditional national birthright covenant promise to Abraham, to fulfill the prophecies about the people Israel, and to build the Kingdom here on Earth that would eventually be given to Christ (the "Stone" Kingdom - Dan. 2:44-45; see also Luke 1:31-33).

Please see: The Abrahamic Covenant
Explaining the unconditional national birthright covenant promise to Abraham, which has been fulfilled.

Please also see: The Scriptural Marks of True Israel
Providing a detailed, scripturally-backed analysis of the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the true people Israel, which have become the Israelite nations of the world today.

In addition to the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant, God made a Covenant with the people Israel that is conditional, requiring obedience to His Law (Deut. 28) to receive His Blessings. Of course there are punishment clauses (the curses) as well, to correct errant behaviour.

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mms20102: Why I think the question matters

Justice & mercy. If God is perfectly just, it seems only fair that a rebellious nation could forfeit special privileges, while an obedient nation—whatever its pedigree—could be granted favor.

AF: Agreed.

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mms20102: Prophetic passages. Several texts appear to warn ancient Israel that disobedience would lead to blessings being removed or transferred.

Continuity vs. continuity-plus-change. Christians, Jews, and Muslims each affirm God’s fidelity, yet differ on how He continues His plan when humans fail.

AF: Two passages, along those lines:

Hosea 11:7-11 (continuity)
11:7 And My people are bent to backsliding from Me: though they called them to The Most High, none at all would exalt [Him].
11:8 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? [how] shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? [how] shall I set thee as Zeboim? Mine heart is turned within Me, My repentings are kindled together.
11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of Mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
11:10 They shall walk after the "I AM": He shall roar like a lion: when He shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the West.

2 Esdras 1:24 (change, based on behaviour)
1:24. What shall I do unto thee, O Jacob/Israel? thou, Judah, wouldest not obey Me: I will turn Me to other nations, and unto those will I give My name, that they may keep My statutes.
1:25. Seeing ye have forsaken Me, I will forsake you also; when ye desire Me to be gracious unto you, I shall have no mercy upon you.
1:26. Whensoever ye shall call upon Me, I will not hear you: for ye have defiled your hands with blood, and your feet are swift to commit manslaughter.
1:27. Ye have not as it were forsaken Me, but your own selves, saith the Lord.
1:28. Thus saith the Almighty Lord, Have I not prayed you as a father his sons, as a mother her daughters, and a nurse her young babes,
1:29. That ye would be My people, and I should be your God; that ye would be My (adopted) children, and I should be your Father?
1:30. I gathered you together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings: but now, what shall I do unto you? I will cast you out from My face.
1:31. When ye offer unto Me, I will turn My face from you: for your solemn feastdays, your new moons, and your circumcisions, have I forsaken.
1:32. I sent unto you My servants the Prophets, whom ye have taken and slain, and torn their bodies in pieces, whose blood I will require of your hands, saith the Lord.
1:33. Thus saith the Almighty Lord, Your house is desolate, I will cast you out as the wind doth stubble.
1:34. And your children shall not be fruitful; for they have despised My Commandment, and done the thing that is an evil before Me.
1:35 Your houses will I give to a people that shall come; which not having heard of Me yet shall believe Me; they to whom I have showed no Signs, yet shall do that which I have commanded them.
1:36 They have seen no Prophets, yet they shall call their former estate (Abraham and Ishmael) and sins to remembrance, and acknowledge them.
1:37 I take to witness the grace of the People that shall come; whose little ones rejoice with gladness: and though they see Me not with bodily eyes, yet in spirit shall they believe the things that I say.
1:38 And now, brother, behold what glory; and see the People that cometh from the East (Muslims):
1:39 Unto whom I will give for leaders, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, Hosea, Amos, and Micah, Joel, Obadiah, and Jonah,
1:40 Nahum, and Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi (Sura 2:124), which is called also an angel of the Lord.

Note: The British (Israelites) liberated Jerusalem from Gentile (Turkish Edomite) rule on December 9, 1917, in fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 12:7. However, the land of Israel has since been stolen from the British by the counterfeit-Jews, through the Rothschild-sponsored and co-authored Balfour Declaration.

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mms20102: Relevant scriptures (in bite-sized form)

Blessing initially promised to Abraham’s two sons Genesis 17 : 20 (Ishmael); Genesis 17 : 21 (Isaac)

AF: While both Ishmael and Isaac were blessed, God's Covenant was established with Isaac and Isaac's sons, NOT with Ishmael.

Genesis 17:19-21
17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac (Laughter): and I will establish My Covenant with him for an Everlasting Covenant, [and] with his seed after him.
17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
17:21 BUT MY COVENANT WILL I ESTABLISH WITH ISAAC, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

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mms20102: Blessing contingent on obedience Deuteronomy 28 : 1–2 / 15; Jeremiah 7 : 3–7
Warning of transfer Matthew 21 : 43

kingdom… taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruits

AF: Where the kingdom was taken from the 2-tribed "House of Judah", which rejected Christ, and given to the 10-tribed "House of Israel", foreshadowing the sceptre departing from Judah to Joseph-Ephraim during Christ's Second Coming.

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mms20102: One God over all peoples Zechariah 14 : 9; Mark 12 : 29

The Lord our God is One Lord

Feel free to add other verses—these are just conversation starters.

AF: To go along with Deut. 6:4; Zech. 14:9 and Mark 12:29:

Sura 2:163. And your God is One God. There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

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mms20102: Lastly three honest questions to the forum

1. Does Scripture anywhere say that Abraham’s non-Isaac line (e.g., through Ishmael) lost its blessing, or are we merely assuming so?

AF: We are reminded throughout Scripture that only Israelites will be redeemed (e.g. Rev. 7:4-9), which is why those from Gentile nations need to be grafted into Israel (the people, NOT the counterfeit-Jewish state in the Middle East).

An "Israelite" is one who champions God's Cause, i.e. one who keeps our Covenant Promise to obey His Law/Commandments, and thus is learning to DO God's Will. This is the ONLY Way that we can draw closer to Father (God) and His Christ, and is the criteria upon which all of us will be judged on the Last Day .

mms20102:
2. When Jesus speaks of the kingdom being “taken… and given to another nation,” do you read that as metaphorical, eschatological, or potentially literal?

AF: Prophetic, literal and foreshadowing Christ's Second Coming.

mms20102:
3. If blessings are conditional, what criteria—in your view—would mark a people today as legitimate heirs of God’s covenant?

AF:
1 John 3:7-10
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey.

If we obey Father (God) and His Law, then we are His Children. If, on the other hand, we continue to listen to and obey Lucifer/Satan/Iblis, then we are his children.

[mms20102]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #2]

Thanks, Freeman, for the detailed answer and for supplying sources.
Let’s test just one pillar first: the claim that Abraham’s national birth-right covenant is entirely unconditional and exclusive to Isaac’s genetic line.

• Genesis 17 already contains a built-in condition

You quoted Gen 17 :19-21 to show the covenant is “with Isaac”.
Look only four verses earlier:

Gen 17 :14 – “Any uncircumcised male who does not keep the covenant shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

So within the Isaac line, anyone who violates the covenant terms is cut off.
→ Birth-right ≠ permanent guarantee.

• God repeats the same filter to Abraham’s face In Quran

Q 2 :124 – When Abraham asked “and from my descendants?”, God replied: “My covenant does not reach the wrong-doers.”

This Qurʾānic restatement exactly mirrors Gen 17 :14. Descent matters; obedience decides.

• “Unconditional” vs. “Everlasting”

Jewish scholarship (see Rashi on Gen 17) explains “everlasting” as available to the line forever, provided each generation upholds its side. Paul says the same in Romans 11:17-22 when he warns the Gentile believers (grafted branches) that they too can be “cut off”.

So Deut 28’s blessings/​curses are not a second, “conditional” covenant; they are the enforcement clauses of the very covenant made with the patriarchs.

• Transfer language is literal, not merely symbolic

You cite Hosea 11 for continuity. I agree—God never breaks His promise; He redirects it to the faithful remnant.
But 2 Esdras 1 (which you quoted) and Matthew 21 :43 show the administration of the kingdom can move:

“Your house is left desolate … I will give it to a nation producing its fruits.”

Even if we debate the canonicity of 2 Esdras, Jesus’ saying stands inside the recognised NT canon.

• Ishmael’s line was never un-blessed, never revoked

Gen 17 :20 – “I will make him a great nation.”

Nowhere does Scripture cancel that promise.

If lineage alone were disqualifying, why does Isaiah 19 :24-25 foresee “Egypt My people, Assyria My handiwork, Israel My inheritance”—three distinct groups sharing blessing?

• Working definition of “Israel” going forward

You wrote: “An Israelite is one who champions God’s cause.”
Great—we agree the label is functional, not racial.
Let’s test every community, including modern-day Christians and Muslims, by that standard of obedience to God’s law of justice and mercy.

Finally

To keep the thread focused, I propose we examine one concrete passage—Genesis 17 or Matthew 21 :43—under these questions:

Does the text itself attach conditions?

Does it allow transfer/​exclusion of unfaithful descendants?

How do later scriptures (prophets, Gospels, Qurʾān) echo or modify that principle?


Looking forward to your thoughts.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to mms20102 in post #3]

Thank-you. The verses you've cited do not negate the unconditional promise made to Abraham, nor the Covenant God made with Isaac through Jacob-Israel. The distinctions made between Isaac and Ishmael cannot be swept away.

This is how Ishmael and his seed are described in the previous chapter:

Genesis 16:10-12
16:10 And the angel of the "I AM" said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
16:11 And the angel of the "I AM" said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the "I AM" hath heard thy affliction.
16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell to the East of all his brethren.

God certainly fulfilled the blessings He promised to Ishmael in multiplying his descendants, and in providing them with the Koran/Quran (which directs its readers back to The Law and the Gospel), BUT GOD'S EVERLASTING COVENANT WAS ESTABLISHED WITH ISAAC THROUGH JACOB/ISRAEL ALONE.

If we look at the entire 17th chapter in context, and what Father (God) later said about circumcision, it should become clear that circumsizing the flesh was designed to place the emphasis on obedience to God rather than to obedience to the selfish urges of the flesh.

Genesis 17
17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the "I AM" appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
17:2 And I will make My Covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
17:4 As for Me, behold, My Covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of MANY nations (the Israelites through Abraham's wife Sarah, the Ishmaelites/Arabs through Sarah's handmaid Hagar, and the Indians (India) through Abraham's later wife Keturah).
17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
17:7 And I will establish My Covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an Everlasting Covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God (Note well: the land of Canaan went to the Israelites, NOT the Ishmaelites).
17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep My Covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
17:10 This [is] My Covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the Covenant betwixt Me and you.
17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed.
17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and My Covenant shall be in your flesh for an Everlasting Covenant.
17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My Covenant.
17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [shall] her name [be].
17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be [a mother] of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before Thee!
17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac (Laughter): and I will establish My Covenant with him (with Isaac) for an Everlasting Covenant, [and] with his seed after him.
17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
17:21 BUT My Covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
17:22 And He left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
17:24 And Abraham [was] ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
17:25 And Ishmael his son [was] thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
17:26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
17:27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

Deuteronomy 10:12-19
10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the "I AM" thy God require of thee, but to fear the "I AM" thy God, to walk in all His Ways, and to love Him, and to serve the "I AM" thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
10:13 To keep the Commandments of the "I AM", and His Statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the "I AM"'s thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is].
10:15 Only the "I AM" had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and He chose their seed after them, [EVEN] YOU ABOVE ALL PEOPLE, as [it is] this day.
10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked (arrogant and obstinate).
10:17 For the "I AM" your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
10:18 He doth execute the Judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 30:5-6
30:5 And the "I AM" thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
30:6 And the "I AM" thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the "I AM" thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the "I AM", and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest My fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings.

Jeremiah 6:9-10
6:9 Thus saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, They shall thoroughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine: turn back thine hand as a grapegatherer into the baskets.
6:10 To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear [is] uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the Word of the "I AM" is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it.

It should be self-evident from the above passages that the circumcision of the flesh was meant metaphorically to keep the flesh and its desires in check, to ensure our spiritual ears and our spiritual desires to do Father's Will take precedent.

It should likewise be self-evident that NONE of Abraham's descendants have kept their/our end of the Covenant with God, and thus ALL of us have fallen under "the curse" (penalty clause) of The Law, which is DEATH (see: Deut. 28:15-68).

Psalm 53:1-3
53:1 <To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, [A Psalm] of David.> The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: [there is] none that doeth good.
53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God.
53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:10-12
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are ALL gone out of The Way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The UNCONDITIONAL Covenant Promise that God made with Abraham was to the NATION AND COMPANY OF NATIONS that the Israelite tribes would become. In this manner, the entire world could see the blessings of God, and His Prophecies, being fulfilled.

The CONDITIONAL Covenant Promise that God made with the Israelite people and, by extension the rest of the world (Deut. 29:9-15), is with EACH INDIVIDUAL, and is predicated upon obedience to God and His Law, and the constant (and joyful) striving to DO His Will. Something none of us have ever lived up to, which is what MUST change.

And it is changing now, during the great awakening (Dan. 12:1-2; Eph. 5:14; Sura 79:1-14).

Jeremiah 31:34
31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the "I AM", that will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel, and with the House of Judah:
31:32 Not according to The Covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; My Covenant which they broke, although I was an husband unto them (metaphorically), saith the "I AM":
31:33 But this [shall be] The Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel; After those days, saith the "I AM", I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the "I AM": for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the "I AM": for I will forgive their inequity, and I will remember their sin no more.

[A Freeman]

Further, please consider the following prophecies, which are also part of the NATIONAL and UNCONDITIONAL Abrahamic Covenant, God established with Israel, which were further reinforced by God's Promise to David.

The following excerpts are from:
The Scriptural Marks of True Israel -

There are at least 95 Scriptural “birth-marks” describing the TRUE people Israel, by which to identify them during the latter days. Since ALL Bible prophecy concerns Israel, it’s critically important to be able to positively identify them; otherwise the prophecies are impossible to understand.

1) God’s Promise to David About the Davidic Throne of Israel:

A PROMISE was made by our Creator to king David, that he would never lack a man to sit on the throne of Israel, until Shiloh/Christ’s Second-Coming (Gen. 49:10; 22-24).

Jeremiah 33:17-21
33:17 For thus saith the “I AM”; David shall NEVER want (lack) a man(A) to sit upon the throne of the House of Israel;
33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want (lack) a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
33:19 And the Word of the “I AM” came unto Jeremiah, saying,
33:20 Thus saith the “I AM”; If ye can break My Covenant of the day, and My Covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
33:21 [Then] may also My Covenant be broken with David My servant, that he should not have a son [or daughter] to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, My ministers.

1 Chronicles 7:10-14
17:10 And since the time that I commanded judges [to be] over My people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the “I AM” will build thee an house.
17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go [to be] with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
17:12 He shall build Me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
17:13 I will be his father, and he shall be My son: and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took [it] from [him] that was before thee:
17:14 But I will settle him in Mine house and in My kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

2 Chronicles 1:9 Now, O “I AM” God, let Thy promise unto David my father be established: for Thou hast made me king over a people like “the dust of the earth” in multitude (Gen. 28:14; Gen. 48:19).

2 Chronicles 7:18 Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have Covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man(A) [to be] ruler IN Israel.

Psalm 89:3-4
89:3 I have made a Covenant with My chosen, I have sworn unto David My servant,
89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to ALL generations. The rock.

Psalm 89:34-36
89:34 My Covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
89:35 Once have I sworn by My holiness that I will not lie unto David.
89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as “the sun” before me.

Psalm 132:10-11
132:10 For Thy servant David’s sake turn not away the face of Thine anointed.
132:11 The “I AM” hath sworn [in] Truth unto David; He will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

(see also: 2 Sam. 7:12-17; 2 Sam. 22:51; 2 Sam. 23:5; 2 Chron. 13:5; 2 Chron. 21:7; 2 Chron. 23:3)

(A)NOTE: Not that long ago, it was still standard practice to refer to the human race (men and women) collectively as “mankind”. So this promise to David—that one of his descendants (male or female – “his seed”, “house” or “the fruit of his body”) would sit on the throne of Israel until Shiloh/Christ comes – does not preclude female descendants from fulfilling that prophecy (reference/case precedent in The Law: Num. 27:1-11).

This single prophecy leaves no doubt that there has NEVER been a time since the reign of king David when there wasn’t one of his descendants to SIT on the Throne of David. This also automatically reduces the possibilities for the people Israel to a single monarchy.

It therefore follows that a careful search through the current monarchies of this world would be the most logical place to begin one’s search for the “lost” tribes of Israel, to see if one monarchy fits the scriptural descriptions we’ve been given. Please see the following links for lists of the world’s surviving monarchies.

8 Oldest Monarchies in the World

List of Current Monarchies

List of current monarchs of sovereign states

Please note well in the second link (List of Current Monarchies) that out of the 44 current monarchies in the world today, 16 of them are under the British rule.

The Truth About the British Monarchy

Please also note well that NONE of the other current monarchs rule over multiple sovereign states.

This is critically important, because with just one more Biblical prophecy, the Throne of David, and thus the TRUE people Israel, can be easily and positively identified.


2) Israel SHALL become “a nation AND a company of nations”.

The following prophecy describes the true people Israel during the latter days:

Genesis 35:10-11
35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name [is] Jacob (the Supplanter): thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and He called his name Israel (champion of God).
35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation AND a company of nations SHALL be of thee(B), and kings SHALL come out of thy loins;

Just as God promised Abraham and Sarah would happen through Isaac, whom Abraham offered to God as a sacrifice at Jehovahjireh (Gen. 22:14; Sura 2:125-127), aka the mount of recognition (Sura 2:198).

(B)Note: There is no other monarchy on Earth that currently rules over “a nation and a company of nations” other than the British monarchy. It can therefore be said with absolute certainty that the British Throne IS the Davidic Throne of Israel.

The remaining Scriptural “birth-marks” of Israel can therefore be taken at face value to apply only to the British, since it is already an established and irrefutable fact that the British are the TRUE people Israel and that the British Throne is the Davidic Throne of Israel.

[mms20102]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #4]

Thank you again for your efforts.

However, it is clear that the covenant of God cannot be confined only to Isaac's descendants as you suggest.
If lineage were the only standard, then why do we find righteous prophets like Job—who was not from Israel—praised for their faithfulness?
Even figures like Jethro, the righteous Midianite priest, or the Queen of Sheba, are honored in Scripture despite not descending from Isaac.

If the everlasting covenant truly depended only on bloodline, such examples would have no place in God's history.
Instead, it is obedience to God, sincerity in worship, and righteousness that truly matter, not mere ancestry.

As for Ishmael, the promise made to him was described as great and lasting.
If God's word is everlasting, then His blessing upon Ishmael and his descendants is still part of His unfolding plan.
It has not been revoked or nullified, because God's promises are true and cannot fail.

Therefore, the real test is not whose ancestor we claim, but whether we are fulfilling God's will today.
This is the consistent message of the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran alike.

May God guide all of us who seek truth sincerely, and may He never forsake those who strive for His pleasure.

I am happy to continue step by step, verse by verse, if you wish. But flooding the forum with so many arguments will not yield any fruit and sticking to the same point without presenting new evidences will be waste of time of the readers. Please try to focus on short comments where people will benefit from reading.

[1213]

1. Does Scripture anywhere say that Abraham’s non-Isaac line (e.g., through Ishmael) lost its blessing, or are we merely assuming so?

I don't think so.

2. When Jesus speaks of the kingdom being “taken… and given to another nation,” do you read that as metaphorical, eschatological, or potentially literal?

I think it is literal.

3. If blessings are conditional, what criteria—in your view—would mark a people today as legitimate heirs of God’s covenant?

If you are speaking of the covenant that was made through Jesus, I think it is offered for all people. But, obviously not all want to accept it.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to mms20102 in post #6]
mms20102: Thank you again for your efforts.

AF: You're welcome.

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mms20102: However, it is clear that the covenant of God cannot be confined only to Isaac's descendants as you suggest.

AF: No "suggestions" have been made. The fact remains, regardless of whether it is accepted or not, that there will ONLY be 144,000 redeemed from the Earth, ALL of whom will be Israelites (true believers, who keep The Covenant).

Revelation 7:4-9
7:4 And I HEARD the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Asher [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could count (which is why he was told in verse 4), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 14:1-4
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many "waters", and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.
14:4 These are they which were not corrupted by women; for they are pure. These are they which follow the Lamb wheresoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb (obeying God NOT women).

(See also: Enoch 1:1-7; Enoch 6:9-11; Enoch 105:15; 2 Esdras 9:15-16; Matt. 7:13-14; Matt. 24:37-39; Rev. 23:12; Rev. 26:9; Sura 10:103; Sura 47:7-14; and Sura 106)

Everyone else will go into The Fire, exactly as it warns us repeatedly throughout Scripture, including at least 300 times in the Koran/Quran.

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mms20102: If lineage were the only standard, then why do we find righteous prophets like Job—who was not from Israel—praised for their faithfulness?

AF: Anyone who isn't part of or grafted into true Israel on the Last Day (true believers who keep The Covenant) will find themselves in The Fire.

Either we learn The Way home or we will face The Fire.

[mms20102]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #8]

You say only 144,000 ethnic Israelites will be redeemed and everyone else is fire-bound.
That collapses under its own texts.

1. Revelation refutes you in the very next breath.
The same vision that counts 144 000 (Rev 7 :4-8) immediately shows “a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, tribe, people and tongue” standing before God (Rev 7 :9).
If only literal Israelites are saved, who are this countless, multi-ethnic crowd in white robes?


2. Your list of tribes isn’t even the original twelve.
Dan is missing, Levi is added, Joseph replaces Ephraim—clear signs the number is symbolic, not a racial census.


3. Scripture itself grafts outsiders into the covenant.

Exodus 12 :48-49 – the foreigner may eat Passover “one law for native and stranger.”

Isaiah 56 :6-7 – “the foreigner who binds himself to YHWH… I will bring to My holy mountain.”

Romans 11 :17 – Gentiles are “grafted into Israel’s olive tree.”

Galatians 3 :29 – “If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.”



4. Even before Israel existed, God accepted non-Israelite righteous men—Job, Melchizedek, Jethro.
Your position would consign them to Hell solely for lacking the right ancestors—an idea the Bible never entertains.


5. Q 2 :124 seals the principle:
“My covenant does not reach the wrong-doers.”
Obedience, not DNA, is the gate.

[mms20102]

[Replying to 1213 in post #7]

Thank you for the clear, straight-to-the-point answers—much appreciated.

Quick recap of where we seem to agree

1. Ishmael’s line: You see no text that says his blessing was revoked. Same here.


2. “Taken … and given to another nation”: You read it literally, so we both accept that covenant administration can shift when people become unfaithful.


3. Through Jesus the covenant is open to everyone: Exactly—the door is wide, even if not everyone walks through it.



Where the conversation can profitably go next

A. Which “nation producing its fruits” did Jesus have in mind?
Some say it was the early, mostly-Gentile Church; others suggest it could be any community that lives out God’s justice in each generation. I’d be interested in your take.

B. Defining the acceptance criteria
If the covenant is “offered for all,” what concrete markers show someone has actually embraced it?

Faith in God?

Obedience to the moral core of the Law (love of God / neighbour)?

Recognition of Jesus’ teaching and example?
Your brief outline would help move us from theory to application.


C. How do passages like Isaiah 19 :24-25 fit?
That prophecy singles out Egypt and Assyria alongside Israel as blessed together in the end. Does that confirm a multi-ethnic covenant family?

Feel free to tackle whichever of these sparks your interest first, or add a new angle. I’m enjoying the focused, text-based approach you bring.

Looking forward to your thoughts.