Are God’s Blessings Permanently Tied to Lineage—or Conditional on Obedience?

[mms20102]

Hello everyone,


I’d like to explore a theme that appears repeatedly in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, yet rarely gets discussed head-on:

Does God’s blessing (or covenant) stay with a people forever simply because of their ancestry,
or does it hinge on their continued obedience to Him?


Why I think the question matters

• Justice & mercy. If God is perfectly just, it seems only fair that a rebellious nation could forfeit special privileges, while an obedient nation—whatever its pedigree—could be granted favor.

• Prophetic passages. Several texts appear to warn ancient Israel that disobedience would lead to blessings being removed or transferred.

• Continuity vs. continuity-plus-change. Christians, Jews, and Muslims each affirm God’s fidelity, yet differ on how He continues His plan when humans fail.

Relevant scriptures (in bite-sized form)

Blessing initially promised to Abraham’s two sons Genesis 17 : 20 (Ishmael); Genesis 17 : 21 (Isaac)
Blessing contingent on obedience Deuteronomy 28 : 1–2 / 15; Jeremiah 7 : 3–7
Warning of transfer Matthew 21 : 43

kingdom… taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruits

One God over all peoples Zechariah 14 : 9; Mark 12 : 29

The Lord our God is One Lord

Feel free to add other verses—these are just conversation starters.



Lastly three honest questions to the forum

1. Does Scripture anywhere say that Abraham’s non-Isaac line (e.g., through Ishmael) lost its blessing, or are we merely assuming so?
2. When Jesus speaks of the kingdom being “taken… and given to another nation,” do you read that as metaphorical, eschatological, or potentially literal?
3. If blessings are conditional, what criteria—in your view—would mark a people today as legitimate heirs of God’s covenant?



Ground rules for the thread

- Please keep replies focused on —texts and principles—, not personal labels.
- I’m genuinely interested in everyone’s viewpoint—Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Muslim, or skeptic.
- One point at a time keeps the conversation clear for readers.

Looking forward to learning from you all!

[A Freeman]

Our Reality - and how it pertains to God's Blessings on the SOULS of those who obey Him:

We are ALL spiritual-Beings (Souls) who are TEMPORARILY incarnated/incarcerated inside of the human animal body (the flesh) we see in the mirror.

The Scripture repeatedly tells us that those who serve the flesh (human) and its ego (the "self") can NEVER "see" much less enter the Kingdom of heaven, because the flesh CANNOT serve God.

John 3:3-7
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot SEE The Kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (human) and then is born (later) from above as his spirit-"Being" (his REAL self which is NOT human), he can NOT enter into The Kingdom of God (Who is a Spirit-"Being").
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh (human); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (a spirit-"Being") - (a human+Being).
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Romans 8:5-8
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] DEATH; but to be spiritually minded [is] LIFE and PEACE (John 3:5-6).
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to The Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
8:8 So then they that are in the ways of flesh cannot please God.

Who do you think places each soul (spiritual-Being) inside each human body? Our Creator (Gen. 2:7). And Who do you think decides the exact moment that soul (spiritual-Being) is taken from the human body? Again, our Creator (Sura 39:42).

Each soul (spiritual-Being/Jinn) is placed inside of the human body that they have earned the right to be in, which will provide them with exactly the lessons and tests they need. With the exception of Enoch (Gen. 5:23-24; Heb. 11:5; Sura 19:56-57), we have all been here for ~6000 years, and experienced multiple human lifetimes, to mercifully be taught what we need to know.

Further, not one single human will ever go to heaven, because heaven is the home of spirits (spiritual-Beings), NOT humans.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit The Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

For those who doubt reincarnation and karma are Scriptural, even though the Old Covenant/Testament, New Covenant/Testament and the Koran/Quran repeatedly teach it, please read the article at the following hyperlink, which is full of scriptural citations.

Reincarnation is an Irrefutable Fact

Karma is an Irrefutable Fact

Peace be upon you and within you.

[1213]

Did the Jews uphold the covenant or reject it?

I think it can't be said all of them have rejected it in all times. But, at one point they generally broke the deal, because it is said:

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, ...
Heb. 8:8-12 (Jer. 31:31-34)

Also that they were scattered as God had promised, shows they broke or didn't continue in the covenant:

But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant; I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away; and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
Lev. 26:14-16
I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cit-ies shall be a waste.
Lev. 26:33

But, that doesn't mean it is not valid anymore, because:

Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them; for I am Yahweh their God; but I will for their sake remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am Yahweh.
Lev. 26:44-45

There is still chance for those who have gone astray. And I think these shows it is much an individual case, not that the whole nation is doomed, if some of them are bad.

Know therefore that Yahweh your God, he is God, the faithful God, who keeps covenant and loving kindness with them who love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations, and repays those who hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him who hates him, he will repay him to his face.
Deut. 7:9-10
It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If [any of] your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deut. 30:1-4

I think this is also confirmed in New Testament:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree, don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who sup-port the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Romans 11:17-21

And have Christians truly kept that covenant in spirit and in practice?

I think many Christians don't even know about any covenant. So, it is sad, but I think many have not kept it.

Is Jesus truly the Prophet like Moses, do all the prophetic features align?

If you want to start new debate about these, I think it is ok. But I think these are quite clear in the Bible. A covenant was made through Moses and also through Jesus, so they are in that way same. In my opinion also the prophetic features align, even if not everything has yet been fulfilled. But, that is perhaps more just an opinion.

Who is the Comforter / Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit or a future prophet?

I think Bible is very clear that it is the Holy Spirit. If you disagree, I would like to know why.

And what exactly did God mean by His covenant with Ishmael, and was it fulfilled?

I don't think God made a covenant with Ishmael. He only told that Ishmael will become a great nation, but the covenant is with Isaac.

[As for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He will become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this set time in the next year."
Gen. 17:20-21

[A Freeman]

The Holy Spirit is our spiritual connection to God.

It is NOT some third character in a pagan "trinity".

And the Holy Spirit is very well defined in Scripture, by Christ Himself, through the mouth of Jesus:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the Truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 14:15-18
14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Christ is the Holy Spirit i.e. our spiritual connection with God. That is why:

Christ is our ONLY Master/Teacher...
Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for ONE is your Master, [even] Christ.

...and the ONLY "Door" and the ONLY Good Shepherd...
John 10:1-18
10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
10:2 But he that entereth in by the door (tells the Truth) is the Shepherd of the sheep.
10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
10:6 This parable spoke Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spoke unto them.
10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have Life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.
10:11 I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the Shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
10:14 I am the Good Shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known by mine.
10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
10:16 And other sheep I have (the "House of Israel"), which are not of this fold (the "House of Judah"): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one Shepherd (Eze 37:22 and Genesis 49:10).
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

...The ONLY Way home, to Father, which art in heaven...
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am The Way, the Truth, and the Life: NOT one man cometh unto the Father, EXCEPT by me.

Sura 3:55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute (by making Christ our ONLY Judge - John 5:22).

The ONLY High-Priest between God and men...
Hebrews 6:20 Where the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made The High Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

...i.e. the ONE and ONLY Mediator between God and men...
1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] ONE God (not a 3=1 "trinity"), and One mediator between God and men, the Man Jesus Christ;

...which would explain why God sent Prince Michael/Christ, aka "The Angel/Messenger of God" and "The Word of God" to deliver His Message of Truth to us, and lead us out of the wilderness of sin to "the Promised Land" (yes, Moses and the Israelites were led through the wilderness by Christ).

Exodus 23:20-23
23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in The Way (ch. 18:20; Deut. 11:28; 31:29; John 14:6), and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice (Mark 9:7), provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name [is] in him.
23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23:23 For Mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

[mms20102]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #21]

I come back to the discussion for one reason only: to ​separate documented revelation from personal invention.
You have now introduced a string of sweeping doctrines—​“Earth is Hell,” “reincarnation for every soul,” “the British Throne is David’s,” “Melchizedek was an earlier incarnation of Christ,” “Job and every non-Israelite prophet are doomed unless they join your sect,” etc.—​yet not a single one is anchored in plain, unambiguous Scripture.

Below are the central claims still waiting for primary, canonical sources (chapter + verse or early-church manuscript). Links to private websites, modern reinterpretations or self-published PDFs are not evidence.

Earth = Hell.
– Please cite one biblical or Qur’anic verse that says the living now walk in Gehenna/Jahannam.
– Every passage you quoted (Ps 16; Acts 2; Ps 139; Isa 14) speaks of Sheol/Hades—the realm of the dead—distinct from Earth and from the future lake of fire.

Universal reincarnation.
– Show a single verse in Torah, Prophets, Gospels or Qur’an that teaches repeated human lifetimes for every soul. Early Christian writers (Justin, Irenaeus, Origen after his correction) and all four Sunni madhhabs expressly rejected the idea.

Melchizedek = a prior incarnation of Christ.
– Hebrews 7 calls Melchizedek “made like the Son of God,” not the same person. Provide text that identifies the two as one being.

British Throne = Davidic Throne.
– Produce an ancient prophetic text that names Britain, Windsor, or the Commonwealth as the seat of David until the Last Day. Jeremiah 33 promises the throne but locates it in Jerusalem, fulfilled in Messiah (Luke 1:32)—no Atlantic detour.

144 000 exclusively ethnic Israelites, all others to The Fire.
– Immediately after numbering the 144 000, Revelation 7:9 sees “a great multitude that no one could count from every nation.” Explain how this fits your “Israelite-only” reading.

Job and other righteous non-Israelites destined for hell.
– Where does God condemn Job, praised in Job 1:8 / Qur’an 38:44, to eternal fire? Chapter and verse, please.

Until you can supply direct, authoritative texts for each claim—​not circular links to your own site—continuing to flood the thread with dozens of unrelated quotations only obscures truth rather than reveals it.

“He who asserts must prove.”

If the proof is absent, the assertion falls.
Future replies that do not address these specific source requests will be noted but not answered, in order to keep the conversation clear for readers who genuinely seek revelation, not rhetoric.

May God guide us all to submit to His word rather than our imaginations.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to mms20102 in post #24]

You're still lying. Why?

You've been provided a mountain of scriptural proof for everything truth that has been personally shared and are choosing to ignore it. That's simply dishonest.

Anyone who doesn't understand that we are all spiritual-Beings (souls/jinns) that are temporarily incarnated inside of these human animal bodies can NEVER understand Scripture (according to Scripture itself, as previously cited).

Correctly advising everyone to COME OUT OF THEIR SECTS is very obviously NOT creating yet another sect; it is simply warning them of the dire consequences that await all who remain in their respective sects, cults, denominations, etc., i.e. ALL organized religion, EXACTLY AS IT REPEATEDLY TELLS US IN SCRIPTURE, and as has been previously cited.

Peace be upon you.

[mms20102]

[Replying to 1213 in post #22]

Thank you for another careful, text-based response. I’ll go point-by-point so we keep each thread clear.

• Did Israel sever the covenant—or only some Israelites?

You’re right: Scripture never damns every Jew. It says the nation as a body broke the Sinai covenant (Jer 31:32), yet a faithful remnant always remains (Isa 10:20-22). That is exactly Paul’s argument in Romans 11. The lesson is corporate privilege can be lost, but any individual—Jew or Gentile—who repents and obeys is welcomed back.

• Have Christians kept the covenant?

Agreed: many have not. Jesus Himself warned that calling Him “Lord” is worthless without doing the Father’s will (Matt 7:21-23). So both Israel and large parts of Christendom illustrate the same principle: lineage or label cannot shield disobedience.

• “Prophet like Moses”—is Jesus the only fulfilment?

Yes, Jesus mediates the New Covenant. Yet Deut 18:18 describes a prophet who:

comes “from your brethren” (a term sometimes used for the Ishmaelites—Gen 16:12; 25:18);

brings a new law (Moses-like);

is heeded after Moses.

Jesus brought no new law (He confirmed Torah—Matt 5:17-19). Many Christians therefore see the final fulfilment in Jesus’ second coming.

• Who is the Comforter / Spirit of Truth?

You say the Holy Spirit. I’d simply note:

The Spirit was already present before Jesus ascended (Luke 3:22; John 20:22).

Jesus calls the Comforter “another” (Greek allon—a distinct person, John 14:16).

He says “He will speak what He hears” (16:13)—language more natural for a messenger than for an indwelling force.

That doesn’t settle the issue, but it shows why some readers see a future prophet. Again, perhaps a dedicated thread?

• Did God make a covenant with Ishmael?

Genesis 17 actually contains two parallel commitments:

v. 7 – a covenant promised through Isaac.

v. 20 – “As for Ishmael, I have heard you… I will make him a great nation.”

While the word berît (covenant) is tied to Isaac, the blessing on Ishmael is declared everlasting and is never revoked anywhere in Scripture. Later prophets keep that door open:
– Isaiah 42:11 links praise of God to Kedar (Ishmael’s second son).
– Isaiah 60:6-7 speaks of the flocks of Kedar and Nebaioth (Ishmael’s first son) being accepted on God’s altar.

Those passages show Ishmael’s line is not abandoned; its fulfilment may come later—possibly through the prophet who brings the final law to the nations.

one last point to link everything together

• Matthew 21 :43—“another nation”

“Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit(s).”
this explicit mentioning of a new nation was interpreted by early Christian writers as a gentile church

c. 180 Irenaeus Against Heresies IV .36 §12 “God has justly rejected them, and given to the Gentiles outside the vineyard the fruits of its cultivation.”
c. 200 Tertullian An Answer to the Jews 1 .5-7 God promised Rebecca that “two peoples and two nations were about to proceed… the prior and ‘greater’ people—the Jewish—must serve the ‘less,’ that is, the Christian.”
c. 248 Origen Commentary on Matthew Bk 10 §189 When “the kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof, [it was] among the Gentiles.”
c. 390 John Chrysostom Homily 68 on Matthew The parable “intimates… the calling of the Gentiles, the casting out of the Jews.”
c. 314 Eusebius of Caesarea Demonstratio Evangelica IX .141 “The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you …’ So, then, we that are the Gentiles know and receive the prophet that was foretold.”

• Next steps

I’ll open a new thread:

A New Nation and a New Prophet: Re-examining Old- and New-Testament Texts

There we can focus on:

Prophet like Moses – single or dual fulfilment?

Comforter – Holy Spirit alone or later messenger?

Ishmael’s blessing – fulfilled or still unfolding?

May God guide us both to honour His covenant in spirit and in truth.

[otseng]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #25]

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[1213]

You say the Holy Spirit. I’d simply note:

The Spirit was already present before Jesus ascended (Luke 3:22; John 20:22).

Jesus calls the Comforter “another” (Greek allon—a distinct person, John 14:16).

We can agree on many things, which is nice. But, in this case, I think the scriptures show it is the Holy Spirit, because:

I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor,{Greek Parakleton: Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, and Comfortor.} that he may be with you forever,-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him, neither knows him. You know him, for he lives with you, and will be in you.
John 14:16-17
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you.
John 14:26
When the Counselor has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will testify about me.
John 15:26
When they bring you before the synagogues, the rulers, and the authorities, don't be anxious how or what you will answer, or what you will say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that same hour what you must say."
Luke 12:11-12
However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but what-ever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.
John 16:13
Now when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all with one accord in one place. Suddenly there came from the sky a sound like the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. Tongues like fire appeared and were distributed to them, and one sat on each of them. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them the ability to speak.
Acts 2:1-4

I think those show it is a spirit that is within the people. Not a physical person like us.

But, it is true that Holy Spirit has existed also before that. I don't think the words of Jesus means that it has not been before, or that no one could have had it before. Only that the disciples got it as Jesus said.

one last point to link everything together

• Matthew 21 :43—“another nation”

“Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit(s).”
this explicit mentioning of a new nation was interpreted by early Christian writers as a gentile church
...

Perhaps the word nation is little misleading, because one can understand it as nation-state. It could be translated also as people. And then it means any people who produce the fruit.