Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to 1213 in post #968]


All you said does not seem to resolve the question, Can one be righteous by doing what is right even if one believes in a different god or religion or none, but must one believe in a particular god, religion and Holy Bok to make the good actions count towards being saved?

And, should it be claimed that one must believe in the bible to know what god actions are, is that a valid claim? It has the danger of making what we would call bad actions good, just because they are in the Bible.

Slavery of course being the prime example. Some Bible apologists try to deny that the Bible endorses slavery. It absolutely does. Others try to excuse it, in which case they are using human morality to judge what is approved in the Bible.

And some have even said that slavery must be ok, though most Christians are correct in saying it is not ok.

[TRANSPONDER]

...You never answered my fundamental question from post 960. Is Jesus-faith absolutely required, or not?...

Required for what? Bible tells, to get eternal life, one must be righteous. And the life is a gift for the righteous. It is not a reward for anything they have done (faith, works or belief).

If so, then Mark 16:15-16 comes into question. If so, then all the ones before Jesus, the ones who never heard of Jesus, and the ones incapable of rational thought, are exempt and instead sent to eternal torment? If no, then we can logically ignore all the verse(s) which suggest it is required.

Again, the key is righteousness. Those who can be counted righteous, can get the gift. If person is judged, the judgment comes by this:

...This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
John 3:16-21

The above question is a great starting point to hammer out these Bible assertions.

Some will argue that Matthew 25:31-46 is Jesus' "ultimate judgement". (i.e.): Are you a 'sheep' or a 'goat'? Is it possible to be deemed a 'sheep' without Jesus-faith? In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus does not mention faith, but only works. This leaves the door open to suggest that maybe some who do not have Jesus-faith may be chosen by one's deeds alone?

In Bible faith and works are connected. If you have faith, it comes visible in works. If you don't have the right works, you don't really have faith. And if you have the right works, you also show that you are faithful (loyal) to God.

1) Your car breaks down on the side of the road. Two good Samaritans pull over to assist. One has Jesus-faith and one does not. Is the one without Jesus-faith applying good deeds in vain? Meaning, is the unbeliever not going to be rewarded, despite regularly applying the 'golden rule'?

2) Two politicians are debating. One has Jesus-faith and the other does not. They both lie equally in their debate. Are the lies from the faithful politician deemed any better than the lies from the unfaithful politician? (Please note, all will remain 'sinners', according to the Bible, whether you are a believer or not. No one is without 'sin', which is why Jesus had to "die for you").

In my opinion your "Jesus-faith" idea is meaningless.

Regularly applying the 'golden rule' should be the default without any wish for reward. Actually, in Biblical point of view, people should do good, even if they would get only harm for it.

If one does good to earn eternal life, it is in vain, because eternal life is a gift for righteous. And if one is righteous, he hates lies.

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace.
Prov. 13:5

If person lies, I don't see how could it be said he has faith, nor how could it be said he is righteous.

This seems confused and contradictory. Apart from salvation not being a 'reward' which clearly it is, there seems a hint that one must believe in God, Jesus and the bible to be able to do good, which is open to serious question, while we get the hint of the Paul fallacy wherein it is supposed that believing in the right god and religion will make one automatically do right things, which we find isn't by any means the case, as Paul founds.

cue: No real Christians.

[TRANSPONDER]

Required for what?

Is this a serious question? Is Jesus-faith an absolute requirement to be selected for Heaven? Yes or no? Once you answer this question, I can then address the rest.

Let me guess the excuse here, as I have seen it before - yes, or No, rather, one can do righteous stuff even if believing in other gods and religions, BUT, the implication is that only in believing in the right god can one understand (whether by Bible morality or Inspiration) what is good deeds.

Which is why slavery is a problem, since not even the NT comes out an says plainly 'don't do it', even though OT and NT alike knows that people don't like to be slaves (chattel - slavery; owned as property), and this is opening the Biblical morality to question, on womens' and gender rights for example.

We can do and have done better that Bible morality as Bible apologists use human morality to judge what it is n the Bible and brandish it about or try to excuse or cover up bad stuff. This shows that the Bible and the supposed words of god are not what one must follow to be Righteous (unless it is right Faith that makes one Righteous, as I have argued all along) but what one feels (or has been taught by society) is Right.

In which case the argument changes, it is not the Bible or religion that makes people 'Righteous' but following the morality we use, or aspire to, at least, and it becomes the claim that what is (evolved) instinct and a human - devised (and evolving) morality is what makes a person 'Righteous' and not God, religion or the Holy Book.
Which is why those who try to impose religious law on a secularist (goldenrule) society are NOT being righteous. Religion has to play by the rules of humanist morality or it is not Righteous.

We should not go back, to religious law or to fundamentalism.

[POI]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #973]

Aside from all of this, I'm also after a (yes/no) answer to explore:

If his answer is 'yes", then what became of all the individuals who died before Jesus, or the ones who never heard of Jesus and died, and the ones incapable of rational thought about a Jesus? None of these three groups qualify.

And if his answer is "no", then I guess we can logically ignore all the verse(s) which suggest it is required.

[POI]

From a new thread, but directly related:

[Replying to POI in post #4]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and I appreciate the questions you’ve raised. You're right to point out that the answers about Jesus' judgment don’t always align, and that leads to the bigger question: Why wouldn’t God—or Jesus, if we take the Gospels at face value—be absolutely clear about something as critical as salvation?

Christians, do you agree here? If not, why? And if you do not, then how exactly IS one saved?

[1213]

....Can one be righteous by doing what is right...

No one becomes righteous by doing something. Similarly as you don't become wise by doing something wise. If you are wise, you do wise things. The same way, if you are righteous, you do righteous things.

If person does righteous things, he could be counted righteous, because he shows signs of that he is righteous.

even if one believes in a different god or religion or none, but must one believe in a particular god, religion and Holy Bok to make the good actions count towards being saved?

Holy Bok sounds like Baals cousin. But, in any case, I have understood righteousness means wisdom of the just. That means, a person who is righteous, is just or fair and truthful. I believe person who has not heard of Jesus could be righteous. But I don't think a righteous person would for example keep some statue as his god.

And, should it be claimed that one must believe in the bible to know what god actions are, is that a valid claim? It has the danger of making what we would call bad actions good, just because they are in the Bible.

I would rather say, person should understand what good actions are. Bible is one way to learn to understand what is good and right. But, I believe it is possible to understand correctly even if one has not heard of the Bible, as I think this shows:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous be-fore God, but the doers of the law will be justified for when Gen-tiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their con-science testifying with them, and their thoughts among them-selves accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

Slavery of course being the prime example. Some Bible apologists try to deny that the Bible endorses slavery. It absolutely does.

And some people ignore all the rules that limit slavery in the Bible. Don't you think it is quite dishonest to cherry pick only the lines from the Bible that suits anti Christians propaganda?

[1213]

Required for what?

Is this a serious question? Is Jesus-faith an absolute requirement to be selected for Heaven? Yes or no? Once you answer this question, I can then address the rest.

Sorry, I can only say what is in the Bible, eternal life is promised only for righteous. To get eternal life, one must be righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

I believe, if one is faithful to Jesus, he can be counted righteous and can then have eternal life.

I believe also, if one has not heard of Jesus, he could be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous be-fore God, but the doers of the law will be justified for when Gen-tiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their con-science testifying with them, and their thoughts among them-selves accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

[TRANSPONDER]

Required for what?

Is this a serious question? Is Jesus-faith an absolute requirement to be selected for Heaven? Yes or no? Once you answer this question, I can then address the rest.

Sorry, I can only say what is in the Bible, eternal life is promised only for righteous. To get eternal life, one must be righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

I believe, if one is faithful to Jesus, he can be counted righteous and can then have eternal life.

I believe also, if one has not heard of Jesus, he could be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous be-fore God, but the doers of the law will be justified for when Gen-tiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their con-science testifying with them, and their thoughts among them-selves accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

We have the same problem every time and Faith prevents you (and others) seeing it.

IF the 'law' means that Righteousness (morals) can be done by anyone, aside the hint that it is 'natural' (innate or instinct, evolved and taught) and thus religion and Godfaith is not needed to be Righteous.

And it does not wash were one to claim that the Bible tea ches morality better than human law. The Bible is provably judged by human morals, as there is good and praised to the sky and bad and excused and blamed on someone else.

p.s I haven't used Google translate Theist - English for a while.

I put through "Sorry, I can only say what is in the Bible" and it came out 'ha, ha, I quote the Bible and ignore everything else'.

[POI]

Sorry, I can only say what is in the Bible

Then you most certainly can answer the (yes/no) question, as (belief) is mentioned all over the place in the Bible. Is the answer yes or no?

Is belief an absolute requirement for salvation, yes or no?

[1213]

Sorry, I can only say what is in the Bible

Then you most certainly can answer the (yes/no) question, as (belief) is mentioned all over the place in the Bible. Is the answer yes or no?

Is belief an absolute requirement for salvation, yes or no?

By what I know, Bible doesn't say it is an absolute requirement for salvation, therefore my answer is no.