Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #960]

This touches on the argument I made to our pal before - one may be 'Righteous' by following God's words (like Abraham) but one needs Faith/belief in God first to think that the words are worth following, so Faith is the basis of righteousness, which then has to be backed up by deeds - following the words one has faith in.

[1213]

...matthew says the women met Jesus before the disciples went to the tomb, and Luke and John say pretty clearly that he didn't.

Please show, where Matthew says "the women met Jesus before the disciples went to the tomb"?

But as to lack of clarity, here's one you might like to explain or answer. I think the writers themselves didn't know what it meant, so just repeat it to show the Sadducees being stumped.

I think I understand it, but you explain it - and with better than Faith That Jesus is lord, god, savior and son of David, too. Faithclaims do not explain.

Mark 12.35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “Why do the teachers of the law say that the Messiah is the son of David? 36 David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’[h]

37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

To explain the problem, if not the solution, ..no, sorry, I explained the problem, but it gave away the solution. You see if you can do better than the synoptic writers who don't appear to have understood it.

Sorry, what is there to be explained? I think that means what it says.

[1213]

If you claim it is the scriptures that are contradictory, then you could show two scriptures that are contradictory. If you can't do that, then it is not the Bible that is the problem.

Then the Bible is the problem: Romans 3:21-26 and Romans 10:9 (Vs.) Matthew 25:31-46 (Vs.) Mark 16:15-16
Is Jesus-faith absolutely required, or not?

Romans 3 & 10 states salvation is gained solely by faith, where-as Matthew 25 states it is solely by one's works/deeds. Further, Mark 16 then states that you not only need belief/faith, but baptism as well. Hence, is the answer B) - faith, C) - works, or D) - both?

Thank you. Now it is nice to look what the scriptures actually say.

But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice{or, a propitiation}, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance; to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:21-26

that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

"... 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:31-46

He said to them, "Go into all the world, and preach the Gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.
Mark 16:15-16

To understand those correctly, it is also good to know these:

Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
James 2:18
By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his house,...
Heb. 11:7

Faith is something that comes visible in actions. If you claim you have faith, but it is not visible in actions, you are a liar. And if you show the right actions, you could be counted righteous. This is why they are not contradictory. Faith, works and righteousness are connected. You can't be called righteous, if you don't have righteous actions. Like in the parable of a tree, people are known by the "fruit" they produce.

Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, nei-ther can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:17-20

But, this doesn't mean you could earn salvation by any deeds. People should do good even without any reward. As you may notice from the scriptures, it is not said people are saved because of their actions. It is said, people who show certain actions, are saved. For example "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" is not the same as, "you are saved because you believe and are baptized".

Savings is a gift for those who are counted righteous. It is not because of anything humans do, but more about what people are. And if person is righteous, it will show in his actions.

for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast.
Eph. 2:8-9
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

So, I think the scriptures are not contradictory. the conclusions that you make of them are contradictory, which should be a good reason to reject the conclusions you make.

[TRANSPONDER]

If you claim it is the scriptures that are contradictory, then you could show two scriptures that are contradictory. If you can't do that, then it is not the Bible that is the problem.

Then the Bible is the problem: Romans 3:21-26 and Romans 10:9 (Vs.) Matthew 25:31-46 (Vs.) Mark 16:15-16
Is Jesus-faith absolutely required, or not?

Romans 3 & 10 states salvation is gained solely by faith, where-as Matthew 25 states it is solely by one's works/deeds. Further, Mark 16 then states that you not only need belief/faith, but baptism as well. Hence, is the answer B) - faith, C) - works, or D) - both?

Thank you. Now it is nice to look what the scriptures actually say.

But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice{or, a propitiation}, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance; to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:21-26

that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

"... 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:31-46

He said to them, "Go into all the world, and preach the Gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.
Mark 16:15-16

To understand those correctly, it is also good to know these:

Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
James 2:18
By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his house,...
Heb. 11:7

Faith is something that comes visible in actions. If you claim you have faith, but it is not visible in actions, you are a liar. And if you show the right actions, you could be counted righteous. This is why they are not contradictory. Faith, works and righteousness are connected. You can't be called righteous, if you don't have righteous actions. Like in the parable of a tree, people are known by the "fruit" they produce.

Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, nei-ther can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:17-20

But, this doesn't mean you could earn salvation by any deeds. People should do good even without any reward. As you may notice from the scriptures, it is not said people are saved because of their actions. It is said, people who show certain actions, are saved. For example "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" is not the same as, "you are saved because you believe and are baptized".

Savings is a gift for those who are counted righteous. It is not because of anything humans do, but more about what people aAnd if person is righteous, it will show in his actions.

for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast.
Eph. 2:8-9
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

So, I think the scriptures are not contradictory. the conclusions that you make of them are contradictory, which should be a good reason to reject the conclusions you make.

These explanations, not to say claims or excuses, just produce more problems. It is almost like the excuse that God cannot show clearly that he exists or Faith would be compromised. To claim that people should do good without any hope of reward is compromised by the bribe of salvation and the threat of hell. Rather, we should have no offer of salvation or hellthreat in order to make 'Righteousness' valid, done for its' own sake, not with the stick and carrot of heaven and hell, which not only cannot be ignored but is enshrined in dogma.

We go around the circle yet again. If one does the good works, without believing the bible, do they get saved, or is correct faith necessary? If so, Faith is what is first required; works is a backup to validate the faith, as you say, but it is compromised by belief in heaven and hell. That dilutes the works by the offer of salvation and hellthreat.

It can't be ignored, and in fact atheists, with no hopes of a heaven or fear of hell, are more Righteous that the Believer.

This is not contradictions in scripture, and not even lack of clarity, but confusion on your part in trying to make Works the thing that counts for righteousness, while emphasising the practical righteousness of works.

Again, if Faith/belief is not a requirement for the 'gift' of salvation, then the non - believer is more Righteous than the believer as they do it without a belief in salvation.

But if Faith in the words, Holy Book and the god is a prerequisite, then Faith is what first counts.

1 Thessalonians 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith,

cue: 'but we need Jesus' words to know right action'. No, because the human morality has gone beyond Bible morality - even the NT, never mind the 'Morality' of the OT - following Fundamentalist Christian and his barbaric stance on many social issues, not to mention politicised science - denial.

[POI]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #964]

Great response. I'll respond to 1213 when I have more time.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #964]

Great response. I'll respond to 1213 when I have more time.

Thank you. Positive feedback is important for me as it reassures me that I'm not talking out of my atheist hat You know, the one from the 'which restroom do I use?' section. But more importantly to stroke my tender ego.

However, we have a Cue: Atheists (aside whether humanist morals are better than Biblical) are not inspired to act better than Christians and thus, act less good than Christians. This also (wearing my Theist hat, which knows which restroom to use, but one never knows which is the front or the bac) also allows me the handy claim of God's morality making people of other religions better; they are following God's morals even if they are using the wrong Holy Book , and that should give me an out of that 'which god?' thing the goddless always bring up.

But, sweeping the Christian hat off my head and donning the atheist one again, I can contest that. Sure my old Christian colleague, pal and opponent was a nice and moral guy, though his apologetics were some of the worst I ever saw. Fell into every trap, e.g the 'natural explanation' step onto the rake, like the 'Black sea flood' apologetic. Jesus really did walk on water, he says, but it was actually wading through the shallows to the sure. Aside it ignores what the Bible actually says (sound familiar? ) it refutes the idea this was a miracle. So the loaves and fishes were the Capernaum branch 'Dial -o -fish' lunch delivery? Jairus' daughter was just asleep and her dad was panicking about nothing? The tomb was empty because the disciples took the body away? The exchanges I had with that fella taught me about keyword exegesis, which is the Christian apologetic method of skimming over the post looking for something to trigger a response (often not even relevant) and not critically thinking about the issues, but just fielding excuses and evasions.

I have said, and maintain that the debate is done and dusted and (as the Democrats are finding out) the Problem is getting the people to listen to their side and not just the apologetics the Christian apologists put out. Kalam is childish and grossly flawed, but people think it's a brilliant apologetic. The 2nd census argument is finally buried (by me and the 2nd term of Varus (1) but does anyone discuss it, never mind, know that the Gnativities cannot be true. But no, they keep thinking of the pretty tale of the shepherds and wise men turning up at the same time not over a year apart.

Yeah...just for the heck of it, the (thankfully) cut shepherds' scene.



But we just have to solder on telling the truth, even if everyone just seems to be listening to the fake news.

(1) cue: "Varus? He got chopped up by the Germans in the Teutenburg forest; he's worthless as an apologetic!"

[POI]

To understand those correctly, it is also good to know these:

Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
James 2:18
By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his house,...
Heb. 11:7

Faith is something that comes visible in actions. If you claim you have faith, but it is not visible in actions, you are a liar. And if you show the right actions, you could be counted righteous. This is why they are not contradictory. Faith, works and righteousness are connected. You can't be called righteous, if you don't have righteous actions. Like in the parable of a tree, people are known by the "fruit" they produce.

Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, nei-ther can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:17-20

But, this doesn't mean you could earn salvation by any deeds. People should do good even without any reward. As you may notice from the scriptures, it is not said people are saved because of their actions. It is said, people who show certain actions, are saved. For example "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" is not the same as, "you are saved because you believe and are baptized".

Savings is a gift for those who are counted righteous. It is not because of anything humans do, but more about what people are. And if person is righteous, it will show in his actions.

for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast.
Eph. 2:8-9
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

So, I think the scriptures are not contradictory. the conclusions that you make of them are contradictory, which should be a good reason to reject the conclusions you make.

You never answered my fundamental question from post 960. Is Jesus-faith absolutely required, or not? If so, then Mark 16:15-16 comes into question. If so, then all the ones before Jesus, the ones who never heard of Jesus, and the ones incapable of rational thought, are exempt and instead sent to eternal torment? If no, then we can logically ignore all the verse(s) which suggest it is required.

***********************************

The above question is a great starting point to hammer out these Bible assertions.

Some will argue that Matthew 25:31-46 is Jesus' "ultimate judgement". (i.e.): Are you a 'sheep' or a 'goat'? Is it possible to be deemed a 'sheep' without Jesus-faith? In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus does not mention faith, but only works. This leaves the door open to suggest that maybe some who do not have Jesus-faith may be chosen by one's deeds alone?

********************************

1) Your car breaks down on the side of the road. Two good Samaritans pull over to assist. One has Jesus-faith and one does not. Is the one without Jesus-faith applying good deeds in vain? Meaning, is the unbeliever not going to be rewarded, despite regularly applying the 'golden rule'?

2) Two politicians are debating. One has Jesus-faith and the other does not. They both lie equally in their debate. Are the lies from the faithful politician deemed any better than the lies from the unfaithful politician? (Please note, all will remain 'sinners', according to the Bible, whether you are a believer or not. No one is without 'sin', which is why Jesus had to "die for you").

[1213]

...It is almost like the excuse that God cannot show clearly that he exists or Faith would be compromised...

Faith means faithfulness/loyalty, it is possible even if you would surely know God is real. And it means you will be loyal to Him and you want to do His will.

To claim that people should do good without any hope of reward is compromised by the bribe of salvation and the threat of hell. Rather, we should have no offer of salvation or hellthreat in order to make 'Righteousness' valid, done for its' own sake, not with the stick and carrot of heaven and hell, which not only cannot be ignored but is enshrined in dogma.

Righteousness is valid, even if there is a "threat" of hell. The "threat" of hell is the same as saying, if you put your hand in fire, it will burn. It is just a warning what could happen.

But i agree, it is not very good to try to make people believe because of threat of hell. It is not very useful.

We go around the circle yet again. If one does the good works, without believing the bible, do they get saved, or is correct faith necessary? ...

Again, if person is righteous, he will get the gift that is the eternal life. And if one is righteous, he faithfully does what is God's will, for examples speaks truth in his heart.

And it is so that righteousness is first required, that leads to right actions, like faithfulness.

It can't be ignored, and in fact atheists, with no hopes of a heaven or fear of hell, are more Righteous that the Believer.

...everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.
Luke 18:10-14

It would be nice, if atheists would really be righteous. Difficult to see that to be true. But, I think it is true that in some matters atheists are correct.

[1213]

...You never answered my fundamental question from post 960. Is Jesus-faith absolutely required, or not?...

Required for what? Bible tells, to get eternal life, one must be righteous. And the life is a gift for the righteous. It is not a reward for anything they have done (faith, works or belief).

If so, then Mark 16:15-16 comes into question. If so, then all the ones before Jesus, the ones who never heard of Jesus, and the ones incapable of rational thought, are exempt and instead sent to eternal torment? If no, then we can logically ignore all the verse(s) which suggest it is required.

Again, the key is righteousness. Those who can be counted righteous, can get the gift. If person is judged, the judgment comes by this:

...This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
John 3:16-21

The above question is a great starting point to hammer out these Bible assertions.

Some will argue that Matthew 25:31-46 is Jesus' "ultimate judgement". (i.e.): Are you a 'sheep' or a 'goat'? Is it possible to be deemed a 'sheep' without Jesus-faith? In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus does not mention faith, but only works. This leaves the door open to suggest that maybe some who do not have Jesus-faith may be chosen by one's deeds alone?

In Bible faith and works are connected. If you have faith, it comes visible in works. If you don't have the right works, you don't really have faith. And if you have the right works, you also show that you are faithful (loyal) to God.

1) Your car breaks down on the side of the road. Two good Samaritans pull over to assist. One has Jesus-faith and one does not. Is the one without Jesus-faith applying good deeds in vain? Meaning, is the unbeliever not going to be rewarded, despite regularly applying the 'golden rule'?

2) Two politicians are debating. One has Jesus-faith and the other does not. They both lie equally in their debate. Are the lies from the faithful politician deemed any better than the lies from the unfaithful politician? (Please note, all will remain 'sinners', according to the Bible, whether you are a believer or not. No one is without 'sin', which is why Jesus had to "die for you").

In my opinion your "Jesus-faith" idea is meaningless.

Regularly applying the 'golden rule' should be the default without any wish for reward. Actually, in Biblical point of view, people should do good, even if they would get only harm for it.

If one does good to earn eternal life, it is in vain, because eternal life is a gift for righteous. And if one is righteous, he hates lies.

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace.
Prov. 13:5

If person lies, I don't see how could it be said he has faith, nor how could it be said he is righteous.

[POI]

Required for what?

Is this a serious question? Is Jesus-faith an absolute requirement to be selected for Heaven? Yes or no? Once you answer this question, I can then address the rest.