Questioning God's Chosen Communication

[POI]

(1) Why would an omniscient God reveal to ancient societies the questions that modern scientific communities would be interested in? (2) Why would God care more about making scientific knowledge available in these texts versus addressing how He wanted humans to live?

For debate: Does the provided video below answer the above two questions sufficiently? If not, why not? If so, then I guess God is inept?

[benchwarmer]

For those who are satisfied in accusing God of evil, there is no other satisfaction (such as that of understanding) available.

“Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?” Job 40:8

The other obvious element is jeering so common in those against Him. We see this in Jesus’ accusers too. Seems to be in the warp and woof of hating God.

Yet again, I'm not accusing God of 'evil.' That would be you. You think chattel slavery is evil, but God does not. You are in direct conflict with the God in which you worship.

As an observer of this back and forth there seem to be only 2 possibilities here:

1) Mae von H is not really understanding the point. That point being that God did not make any rules against chattel slavery, in fact he condoned the practice and gave some rules for it. God, however, did make some rules for things like murder and blasphemy. Whether people follow the God given rules is another discussion entirely.

2) Mae von H does understand the point and is now trying to save face by not daring to admit that the God they believe in condones something considered 'evil' by them (and others).

For this question, it's really quite simple. The God of the Bible condones chattel slavery. End of discussion.

For those that consider chattel slavery wrong/evil/<name your own adjective>, then they are in disagreement with the God portrayed in the Bible. It's really that simple.

It must be hard for some believers to have this pointed out, but it's the truth. Right there in your favorite translation of the Bible. No getting around it.

[POI]

it's really quite simple. The God of the Bible condones chattel slavery. End of discussion.

For those that consider chattel slavery wrong/evil/<name your own adjective>, then they are in disagreement with the God portrayed in the Bible. It's really that simple.

It must be hard for some believers to have this pointed out, but it's the truth. Right there in your favorite translation of the Bible. No getting around it.

And since The Tanager realizes this, his position is that the God of the Bible recognizes that these ancients were stubborn. Committing the practices of chattel slavery was ingrained within them. Hence, The Tanager argues God did not abolish it, because it would instead cause these folks to reject the relationship with God, or something like that...

My rebuttal is simply that God tells folks, "psst, if your gonna own chattel slaves, here's the correct way to do it."

-- His argument is that God wants to progress folks away from the practice, by doing it slowly - (as they are very stubborn), because he is not okay with slavery.

-- My argument is that God wants progression towards the right way to own a chattel slave, because he is indeed okay with chattel slavery.

He continues to reject the notion that all such laws were man-made alone. So, I'm sticking to the above for now, as it still makes more sense than his position...

**********************

Not sure if he has bailed, or is maybe taking a breather?

[benchwarmer]

And since The Tanager realizes this, his position is that the God of the Bible recognizes that these ancients were stubborn. Committing the practices of chattel slavery was ingrained within them. Hence, The Tanager argues God did not abolish it, because it would instead cause these folks to reject the relationship with God, or something like that...

I personally find this apologetic ludicrous. I would wager that murder is more ingrained in humans then and now. Yet low and behold, God was fine telling people to not murder.

It shouldn't matter how stubborn humans were or are now. You lay down the 'correct' behavior from the beginning. If this god wants to temper the punishments a bit at first until people realize he means business then understandable (maybe). Yet pretending the God of the Bible condones something just because some humans were stubborn is .... well... laughable. We as a species are stubborn about a lot of behaviors, that doesn't mean a god should coddle us if some rules need to be laid down.

It really baffles me when some Christians will tap dance as hard as they can around an issue rather than just admitting the likely truth. Humans came up with and wrote the 'laws' in the Bible. A loving, compassionate god would/should be horrified.

[Mae von H]

But let’s test you. How should God have eliminated slavery bamm?

Off the top of my non omnipotent head:
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the spherical earth and also doesn't approve of humans owning other humans as property.

It's really not as hard as you would like to imagine it being.

God doesn’t approve of murder. Are there then no murders? It’s not as easy as you imagine it to be.

You are still missing my point. Skeptics are not arguing that God doesn't disapprove of murder. It's only justified when he commands it.

You continue to miss the point that you twist things so as to accuse God of evil. You don’t see this. Now you accuse Him of ordering murder, a clear evil,

But unless he violates free will, he cannot stop all murder. But we at least know he does not approve of murder, in which he does not directly command himself. However, God weighed in on the topic chattel slavery as well. He approves of it, as he weighed in on it and instructed folks on how to do it the correct way. You think this act is evil. Why do you not agree with the God you worship? He thinks it is okay, you disagree.

You miss the point that commanding or approving or disapproving DOES NOT STOP man from doing the action. It’s point blank obvious but still you don’t get it.

Those who agreed to rules of war don’t therefore APPROVE of war. Or do you think the nations that regulated war conduct are then OK with war?

[TRANSPONDER]

You are the one who habitually misses the point, ignores it and tries to excuse it.

Your analogy of war works against you. Humans have come up with rules of war to try to at least avoid some of the worst knock ons. God has no such rules.Total war, genocide,extermination and enslavement. That's God's way of waging war.

Like slavery, humans themselves could do better, and the Biblical failure to denounce either slavery or war superstitious ignorance (like demons causing illness), bad science, poor history and of course contradictions means that attempts to excuse the inexcusable by comparing human limitation to a god who is supposedly without limits, lack of knowledge or personal problems, must fail, and only faithbased denial fingers in the ears ignoring of debunks and saying the same thing again in different words keeps the debate going.

[benchwarmer]

You continue to miss the point that you twist things so as to accuse God of evil. You don’t see this. Now you accuse Him of ordering murder, a clear evil,

I suggest brushing up on your Bible. Not only does this God threaten murder, He is fine ordering it and having it carried out. If you thinks that's clear evil (which you seem to), then your argument is with this Bible God, not us:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

4 Moses said, “Thus says the Lord, ‘About midnight I will go out through Egypt. 5 Every firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne to the firstborn of the female slave who is behind the handmill and all the firstborn of the livestock.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

12 I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike down every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from human to animal, and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord.

29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the prisoner who was in the dungeon and all the firstborn of the livestock.

[TRANSPONDER]

The whole thing about God controlling Pharaoh is really a good test case. It not only cuts across this thing about Free Will (God can do it at need and never mind the NOT excuse - He does it to Paul, too) but it shows up Apologetics denial. Last time I debated this, it was denied, even when I posted the Bibletext saying clearly God was controlling Pharaoh's mind to give God a chance to send his punishments.

Someone explain to me, Believer, unbeliever or former believer...why the deny what it plainly says in the Bible? Why God is claimed to be this or that when the Book itself says he ain't. What is the mindset that makes apologists do that?

I have a theory, of course; and it's not mind. It's Tribalism, and that is the basis of politics. So it is no surprise that religion and politics are two sides of the same coin, and the same methods are used in political apologetics as in religious. Lies, excuses and denial and fingers crossed that the Worst Cause' (1) will fool enough of the people enough of the time to gain social support and silence those pesky ay-theeists, or the other Party.

(1) Aristophanes 'The clouds'. He has the character refer to the philosophic method (actually Rhetoric - which I call 'Lawyer tricks') and making the worst cause appear the better.

[Mae von H]

You continue to miss the point that you twist things so as to accuse God of evil. You don’t see this. Now you accuse Him of ordering murder, a clear evil,

I suggest brushing up on your Bible. Not only does this God threaten murder, He is fine ordering it and having it carried out. If you thinks that's clear evil (which you seem to), then your argument is with this Bible God, not us:

Let’s examine what you
think is murder… .

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

4 Moses said, “Thus says the Lord, ‘About midnight I will go out through Egypt. 5 Every firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne to the firstborn of the female slave who is behind the handmill and all the firstborn of the livestock.

That’s called judgement and it’s a punishment like to that the Egyptians carried out on the Hebrews. When a judge delivers capital punishment, he isn’t asking the executioner to murder.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

12 I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike down every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from human to animal, and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord.

I WILL EXECUTE JUDGEMENTS!!!
You miss that bit.

29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the prisoner who was in the dungeon and all the firstborn of the livestock.

That’s called executing judgement and He is the Judge of all the earth.

[benchwarmer]

That’s called executing judgement and He is the Judge of all the earth.

You can reframe and tap dance all you want. The story has God killing EVERY first born simply because Pharaoh wouldn't relent. I suggest maybe this God character should have simply 'passed judgement' on Pharoah and killed him instead. If that didn't work, then work on down through the Egyptian leadership. That would have been 'righteous judgement'. Blanket killing of EVERY first born is plain old murder.

If you can't see this, then we will have to agree to disagree. I'm hoping you realize there are probably better solutions than mass killing of people not involved in the decision making.

That fact that some Christians are fine with this type of killing is what likely drives some further and further from listening to any other ideas these Christians may have about what might be 'good' or 'right'.

[TRANSPONDER]

(1) Why would an omniscient God reveal to ancient societies the questions that modern scientific communities would be interested in? (2) Why would God care more about making scientific knowledge available in these texts versus addressing how He wanted humans to live?

For debate: Does the provided video below answer the above two questions sufficiently? If not, why not? If so, then I guess God is inept?

....

I don't think the video is good for anything. I think God's rules in the Bible in all cases are as clear. The problem seems to come when people read only small part of it and ignore everything that doesn't support their interpretations, not the Bible itself. If your video is inept, it doesn't mean God is also.

Rubbish. Denial. God's rules in the Bible (even before they get revised in the NT because it was written by Christians, not Jews) are bad, reactionary and wrong and half of them people don't do anyway.

People follow humanist rules and just claim they are God's and if they aren't (and demonstrably they are not, just take slavery) then it is excused as 'pointing that way'. in the process of giving the Bible the credit for what humans have done The fact is that it works as well and explains more (and needs to deny less) if we assume humans were doing their best in various cultures and making slow progress and that is still going on.

Bottom line, you may deny everything (with or without watching the video) but it isn't about getting you to admit anything you don't want to.Bible apologists don't. It is about making the best case for others to consider.

Rock bottom line - it is not about how much you can deny but the case you can make which is not to say excuses with pot kettle accusations of cherry picking, taking out of context and being inept. Which is the stock in trade of the Bible apologists.