John 3:3 Could you restart from 'scratch'?

[Masterblaster]

Hello

John 3:3 "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

What about you?
Could you restart from 'scratch'?

Why such a severe censure?

This is my opinion which may not be yours. Jesus tells us ,quite plainly, that we are lost. We are going the wrong way, we are doing and saying and thinking the wrong things. We are on the road to nowhere.
Why?
I read every day that Biblical scholars are rejecting Christianity. The current presentation of the message of Jesus about the Kingdom of God, is not standing up to normal scrutiny. It is being regarded as a sham.
All it then becomes is a something like a fake news or a woke or a whatever, to be used for purpose by extreme stupidity and/or cynicism.

Look at Islam, has it a moral core, has it provenance that makes its popularity worthy.? I cannot see it.
Maybe it has.

You should not fake 'God belief'.if you do ,then you are wasting your own time, for nothing real. Let us honestly consider John 3:3.
1.Is what you believe ,real?
2. Do you want to change some of your doctrinal truths?
3. Are you prepared,if needs be, to dump the whole lot?
4. Will you listen and consider new ideas?
5. Will you allow your beliefs to be reborn?

This John 3:3 is a tall order, as a theological decree to any person, believer or atheist!

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

Let us not trade cheap shots. This bit ruffled me.
You said: - " We need to understand ourselves, biologically logically and rationally as doing it through Myth and religion only sinks us deeper into ignorance.,

It was the selective generalization that got me.

We have established that our species is deeply flawed.
We can agree that if help were available, it would be sensible to use it.
Would alien technology help us?
Would enabling ourselves to travel the galaxy help us?
Have cars helped us. Is it a given, that everyone can have one. Look at the rat races in the huge cities of the world.
So logically, rationally and biologically , when we use none of that, makes your alternative as non-existent as a five headed deity. You are preaching a failed religion . It is called senseless advancement. We should look into the hole before we jump in but we don't. If we see something shiny we think it is gold.
We need to have some sort of compass and reference to proceed. That is God. That is the hope of the theist. Thanks.

The 'cheap shots' were yours. I don't think I used 'selective generalisations'. I cited known points to indicate that the nuclear threat was no great depature from our normal problem with warfare or the threat of it and that religion has not much helped in the past, but rather made it worse. Not that it's relevant in any case.

Technology has helped us. It has its' own problems but we wouldn't be so well off without it. Alien technology might well help us, but until we know it is there to appeal to, I see mo point in saying prayers for it to come and help.

And the same applies to gods.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER
You say - "I do think mankind needs to be Born Again - with understanding and acceptance of what we are - evolved primates, brutish, mischievous, greedy, selfish "

We both know that that aspiration is not happening.
Nobody is being Born Again. Jesus knew that ,to his cost.
The best and most realistic option is a general mood change. If we talk carrot and stick diplomacy then it will be the desperation of our situation that provides the stick. Humans are a mulish lot and not easily led or driven.
Get them to take small steps backwards to get them to unlearn what they thought they knew.
The Jesus message is about small and considered steps, starting with the first one.
As I said,on another thread, what else are you doing today. Start with a small bit of Jesus...'Behold the birds of the air.....off you go.

I'm going to give you a lot of credit over that post.The only thing I'd say is that this is borrowed human ethics turned to serve the benefit of the creed. We might do better without it, and any religious creed.

If humans need to be 'born again' is is not a case of investing all reason, aspiration and trust in a mythical being and a bunch o tall tales, but in a rational rather than instinctive way of thinking.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "If humans need to be 'born again' is is not a case of investing all reason, aspiration and trust in a mythical being and a bunch o tall tales, but in a rational rather than instinctive way of thinking."

Nobody is being born again. Let me say , that I do not want to preach. At best, I may inform, at worst ,I may misguide. It is an individual call and normally things carry on as is.
Allow me to say this. The world has always been full of wonderful human beings. I try to avoid cynicism and strive towards positivity. Jesus saw the good in people. Did he ever chastise a wretch?. The priests could give as good as he gave back.

My accepted facts

1. People's motives with religion are sincere.
2. Nobody intentionally seeks a false Deity to believe in.
3.It is extremely difficult to turn the Titanic
4.Most people are incapable of jumping into the ocean.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "If humans need to be 'born again' is is not a case of investing all reason, aspiration and trust in a mythical being and a bunch o tall tales, but in a rational rather than instinctive way of thinking."

Nobody is being born again. Let me say , that I do not want to preach. At best, I may inform, at worst ,I may misguide. It is an individual call and normally things carry on as is.
Allow me to say this. The world has always been full of wonderful human beings. I try to avoid cynicism and strive towards positivity. Jesus saw the good in people. Did he ever chastise a wretch?. The priests could give as good as he gave back.

My accepted facts

1. People's motives with religion are sincere.
2. Nobody intentionally seeks a false Deity to believe in.
3.It is extremely difficult to turn the Titanic
4.Most people are incapable of jumping into the ocean.

People'moved' by religion may be sincere, aside those who just do it as duty or because it's a job. But sincere doesn't make right. If that were the case, either all religions are right or sincerity doesn't mean correct. You don't need to tell me the religious liner 'Star of the Sea ' turns slowly, but turn it does, to follow the course of human progress ethics and society or it gets Left Behind. And most people are in fact capable of jumping into the ocean. The majority of present atheists did so. But it does take a bit of nerve. Especially as the collision with the iceberg is slow and the sinking so gradual so the passengers may convince themselves they are going to reach celestial harbor fine and dandy. The analogy works better as a metaphor for those who see clearly having the courage to leave the leaky rustbucket of religion.

And the Priests (rather the Rabbis; the Pharisees and teachers of the Law, do try to understand the difference) could indeed have given back as good as they got (e.g a discussion about whether healing on the Sabbath is ok) and better (like completely trashing David and the Shewbread (1) and should have done. But they say nothing but skulk away to plot Jesus' elimination. This seems clear to me - the account was written by Christians and fabricated just to make the Rabbis look bad and to fool believers into thinking the Jewish Law got debunked.

Pal, we are being scammed by the gospels every time we credit them with telling the truth.

(1) memo - David's misdeeds (though the priest deemed it was ok for his to eat the bread) would not be an excuse to scrap the Sabbath.