John 3:3 Could you restart from 'scratch'?

[Masterblaster]

Hello

John 3:3 "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

What about you?
Could you restart from 'scratch'?

Why such a severe censure?

This is my opinion which may not be yours. Jesus tells us ,quite plainly, that we are lost. We are going the wrong way, we are doing and saying and thinking the wrong things. We are on the road to nowhere.
Why?
I read every day that Biblical scholars are rejecting Christianity. The current presentation of the message of Jesus about the Kingdom of God, is not standing up to normal scrutiny. It is being regarded as a sham.
All it then becomes is a something like a fake news or a woke or a whatever, to be used for purpose by extreme stupidity and/or cynicism.

Look at Islam, has it a moral core, has it provenance that makes its popularity worthy.? I cannot see it.
Maybe it has.

You should not fake 'God belief'.if you do ,then you are wasting your own time, for nothing real. Let us honestly consider John 3:3.
1.Is what you believe ,real?
2. Do you want to change some of your doctrinal truths?
3. Are you prepared,if needs be, to dump the whole lot?
4. Will you listen and consider new ideas?
5. Will you allow your beliefs to be reborn?

This John 3:3 is a tall order, as a theological decree to any person, believer or atheist!

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - 'We need to understand ourselves, biologically logically and rationally as doing it through Myth and religion only sinks us deeper into ignorance"

You are the Prince of the eternal proviso, and the exponent of the 'eternal 'cop out'. These elements always simmer and surface in your seemingly reasoned submissions.

Let me paraphrase your latest excuse.

Let us do things scientifically because doing them religiously is far worse.

This lame excuse will not get you far.
Go back to the ambient place that you eloquently described a few posts ago,...remember the place where the nuclear option was begat.

Now, look at the theist standing beside you. That is me. I'm not saying that my approach is best because yours is worse. I do not need that debating crutch.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - 'We need to understand ourselves, biologically logically and rationally as doing it through Myth and religion only sinks us deeper into ignorance"

You are the Prince of the eternal proviso, and the exponent of the 'eternal 'cop out'. These elements always simmer and surface in your seemingly reasoned submissions.

Let me paraphrase your latest excuse.

Let us do things scientifically because doing them religiously is far worse.

This lame excuse will not get you far.
Go back to the ambient place that you eloquently described a few posts ago,...remember the place where the nuclear option was begat.

Now, look at the theist standing beside you. That is me. I'm not saying that my approach is best because yours is worse. I do not need that debating crutch.

Tell me, whom do you see reaching for the red button first; those who believe that their God will see them right or those who know that as soon as they do that, they are toast? No, the nuclear option will not avail you, Fane of Urion. And apart from the scare -tactic of the nuclear threat, which I suspect might have postponed a WWIII -and still might - and completely skipping the Morality debate, what matters to me is what's true, not that believing there are fairies at the bottom of the garden makes one a nicer person.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You protest too much,T.
The nuclear threat is not euphemistically hit to touch by casually mentioning a Red Button.

If you want to defend Science, then do so.
Explain what we do with our nuclear waste.
Explain what got us here living on a thread.
Explain what our original motivations were with nuclear.
If our intentions were civil and domestic then why was a reasoned judgement not made.
Above all ,do not connect all this scientific spin with theism, as you did here.

You say - 'We need to understand ourselves, biologically logically and rationally as doing it through Myth and religion only sinks us deeper into ignorance"

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You protest too much,T.
The nuclear threat is not euphemistically hit to touch by casually mentioning a Red Button.

If you want to defend Science, then do so.
Explain what we do with our nuclear waste.
Explain what got us here living on a thread.
Explain what our original motivations were with nuclear.
If our intentions were civil and domestic then why was a reasoned judgement not made.
Above all ,do not connect all this scientific spin with theism, as you did here.

You say - 'We need to understand ourselves, biologically logically and rationally as doing it through Myth and religion only sinks us deeper into ignorance"

No, no, that's all irrelevant. I don't claim the actions of men are perfect.Humanism accept we are an imperfect species struggling to make things right and not always doing so. We do not claim that evolution working towards a percetion will eventually return in our lifetimes and makeeverything perfect.

Christianity does that though up to now hasn't looked so brilliant ,despite trying to take credit for abolition of slavery or blaming anything bad (like the crusades, thirty years' war, Conquista, witch and hecetic - burnings and exploitations, abuses and scams without number.

But even if you were right,even if Christianity deserves the high moral ground it lays claim to, that still wouldn't make it true, even if it made it necessary. As it is, it tries to claim it is necessary, but I reckon it does more harm than good.

P.s just so you can't accuse me of evasion, the understanding of nuclear power began with the first splitting of the atom and realising the potential power.

During the war Germany was working on an atomic bomb, and that pretty much forced America to develop one first while bombing out the Facilities the Germans were using. Now whatever the Real motivations behind actually using the bomb, I am convinced that,nasty though it was, Jeapan would never have surrendered and fought to the last man woman and child. Use of the bomb saved lives more than destroyed them.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

I can honestly say that your stuff is getting worse.
Add evasion, to cop out and proviso. Sorry.

I knew that you were aware that nuclear/atomic research was prompted by an attempt to kill each other as effectively as possible. You couldn't stop there. You had to excuse Hiroshima as the logically sound thing to do.Better to kill two hundred thousand than two million.Why did you not take the opportunity to condemn scientific folly, and be done with it.

You say - "Humanism accept we are an imperfect species struggling to make things right and not always doing so."

Did you ever consider looking for help in our need?. So we are messing up constantly, boo hoo! Maybe look for God! Surely it is worth a try if you are a self professed serial loser(not youT/all of us)

You say - "Christianity does that though up to now hasn't looked so brilliant"

Back on the old hobbyhorse, ie we are complete losers but you lot are worse.
Apart from that it was fine T.
Keep getting up!

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

I can honestly say that your stuff is getting worse.
Add evasion, to cop out and proviso. Sorry.

I knew that you were aware that nuclear/atomic research was prompted by an attempt to kill each other as effectively as possible. You couldn't stop there. You had to excuse Hiroshima as the logically sound thing to do.Better to kill two hundred thousand than two million.Why did you not take the opportunity to condemn scientific folly, and be done with it.

You say - "Humanism accept we are an imperfect species struggling to make things right and not always doing so."

Did you ever consider looking for help in our need?. So we are messing up constantly, boo hoo! Maybe look for God! Surely it is worth a try if you are a self professed serial loser(not youT/all of us)

You say - "Christianity does that though up to now hasn't looked so brilliant"

Back on the old hobbyhorse, ie we are complete losers but you lot are worse.
Apart from that it was fine T.
Keep getting up!

Sorry. You have done yourself no favours here. The fact is that we are terrified of and traumatised by the nuclear threat and rightly so. But you have to look at the facts, rather than an easy stick to beat materialism/science with or whatever your agenda was for bringing up nuclear weaponry out of thin air. Fact is that, despite apologetics about peace feelers (which the Bushido government would not have accepted) invading Japan would have been far more destructive than the bombs that did force the surrender. I believe in fact the fireboming of Tokyo was more destructive than both nuclear bombs.

Before you you can talk about rushing to an imaginary divinity to wave a magic wand and save us all, tell us which god (or gods) we should pray to, anyway, even holding up validating any such god - claim.

Neither do you do yourself any favours by trotting out the shambling old nag of 'Oh not that old argument'. It was right then, it is right now. Religions have not notably made people behave better, and that goes for Christianity as much as any. It is a wearisome old ploy to claim anything good for religion (name your own) while dismissing all the bad as 'that old argument' (1). You need to go back to the beginning of your reasoning and start again, since none of that works.
That said, I welcome your argument as it is not a new one by any means and has failed in the past as it will fail here, but there will be many looking in who have never heard the argument much less any response atheism might have to it. Theist outlets do not normally go to great lengths to present both arguments.

(1) hold also the list of terribly old arguments still presented today as though they were the Lane -Craig latest - Paley's watchmaker, Pascal's wager and Anselm's' If we can imagine it, it must be true' nonsense

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

Let us not trade cheap shots. This bit ruffled me.
You said: - " We need to understand ourselves, biologically logically and rationally as doing it through Myth and religion only sinks us deeper into ignorance.,

It was the selective generalization that got me.

We have established that our species is deeply flawed.
We can agree that if help were available, it would be sensible to use it.
Would alien technology help us?
Would enabling ourselves to travel the galaxy help us?
Have cars helped us. Is it a given, that everyone can have one. Look at the rat races in the huge cities of the world.
So logically, rationally and biologically , when we use none of that, makes your alternative as non-existent as a five headed deity. You are preaching a failed religion . It is called senseless advancement. We should look into the hole before we jump in but we don't. If we see something shiny we think it is gold.
We need to have some sort of compass and reference to proceed. That is God. That is the hope of the theist. Thanks.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER
You say - "I do think mankind needs to be Born Again - with understanding and acceptance of what we are - evolved primates, brutish, mischievous, greedy, selfish "

We both know that that aspiration is not happening.
Nobody is being Born Again. Jesus knew that ,to his cost.
The best and most realistic option is a general mood change. If we talk carrot and stick diplomacy then it will be the desperation of our situation that provides the stick. Humans are a mulish lot and not easily led or driven.
Get them to take small steps backwards to get them to unlearn what they thought they knew.
The Jesus message is about small and considered steps, starting with the first one.
As I said,on another thread, what else are you doing today. Start with a small bit of Jesus...'Behold the birds of the air.....off you go.

[Masterblaster]

Hello
Here is a Lunch Pack for the week.

Matthew 6:26-34
New King James Version
26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one [a]cubit to his stature?

28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not [c]arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Imagine the blow to the false God of consumerism, that would be. We might even be able to catch our breath. Buddhism approaches therapy in the exact same way.
I have not got time for therapy right now. I must leave as I have to get 4 new tyres for my car, 17 yrs old and test next week!

[Masterblaster]

Hello
Next week's Assignment

"I have seen the rain and felt the sun, so I think God loves also me". 1213

Isn't that wonderful for a bit of encouragement and hope We need to get out more. Jesus was a rambler. Have you got a balcony or a garden or a local park or a field or a wood or a mountain or a....if you can feel the sun and the rain then maybe you will find gratitude in the presence of something wonderful. Many ill and unfortunate people cannot get to these things, but we must all make our own efforts.
Outside is where the birds and the weeds are, alongside,everything else. Look,as new, as a child at your world.
It is unbelievable awesome fun!

Next week let's go outside at night. Get a coat and a chair and contemplate the cosmos
'Behold the stars of the sky they....'
Wonder at the magnitude of things.
Find place and perspective for your concerns.
Remember you are in Rehab
Strive to heal
Thank You 1213