Is being Transgender a choice?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm of the opinion that gender expression is a result of social conditioning. I know I used the word "choice" in the title, but that's only because people tend to associate behavior that can be changed or conditioned as being a "choice" (borrowing from the debate on born this way vs. choice).

In this thread, I want to focus on being transgender. Based on my above opinion, I also believe that being transgender is also a result of social conditioning (i.e. childhood experiences, what they learn from society, etc). If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I also bring these points up because when some parents complain about their kids learning about transgenderism in school, the reaction is that it won't impact (some say "groom" ) the child into becoming transgender. If my view is correct, I think the pro-trans crowd should acknowledge that it can potentially influence children AND there's nothing wrong with that.

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?
2. Edit: Removed. Teaching kids about gender identity can be a separate thread.

[Clownboat]

When asked if she thought that all trans people are mentally ill she answered...'No, I don't....'

Try to be honest. They stated that there are some people that claim to be trans, that are not. Them not being trans takes them off the mentally ill table obviously.
I'm not arguing that their opinion is correct by the way, just being honest with it.

There's no science in you, brunumb. Just prejudices.

Yah!!! And brunumb is probably smelly, hairy and all covered in warts as well!

[oldbadger]

- You still fail to acknowledge that the old lady scenario is one where the old lady is using the wrong pronouns.
- I clarified the 'exceptions to every rule' that seemed to confuse you earlier. You failed to address it or acknowledge it.
- You accused me of quoting words from you that you never used, but you did. When I showed you your words and the posts you used them in, you failed to address them or even acknowledge your words.

And you protest that I'm beginning to have a discussion with the readers here in place of yourself!
What would you expect?

And which readers bothered to answer you, eh?

Copy/paste to save time: "Your position isn't consistent and is therefore hard to agree with."

I feel justified to now be addressing the class. You can acknowledge why or not acknowledge why, but I trust our readers understand what is taking place.

You're so worried about how nasty old lady neighbours should be handled that I begin to believe that's what you might be.

I expect that Transgender haters and phobics can be found all over, but what reasonable and decent communities need to do is to ignore them as much as possible, but where their nastines turns in to any kind of provocation, harassment or incitement then to report such actions and leave decisions to police, I guess.

[oldbadger]

Try to be honest. They stated that there are some people that claim to be trans, that are not. Them not being trans takes them off the mentally ill table obviously.
I'm not arguing that their opinion is correct by the way, just being honest with it.

She said what she said, and to the question she answered 'No'.

Yah!!! And brunumb is probably smelly, hairy and all covered in warts as well!

Really? I've never seen him.

[brunumb]

Everything that you say is so cranked, brunumb. This is not the 'science section' but the 'science/religion' section, and I don't think that you are any kind of scientist.
What do/did you do for a living, by the way?

It's apt that you commented that this is the 'science/religion' section. Back in the day, religion declared what was the truth and crushed any attempt from science to intervene and challenge that 'truth'. Today, the trans activists are behaving in exactly the same way as those religious zealots from the past.

How about this from a very prominent trans woman, Blaire White.

When asked if she thought that all trans people are mentally ill she answered...'No, I don't....'

Really? Here is a transcript from the clip:

Q: At some point you described dysphoria as like a mental illness.
So do you would you consider yourself then mentally ill because you are transgender?

BW: For sure. Yeah For sure.

Q: So do you think there are transgender people who aren’t mentally ill?

BW: Well, I think there are a lot of people who call themselves trans that are NOT. So, so those people, perhaps they’re not. I mean that’s some other things going on. But gender dysphoria itself, I believe, is a mental illness. And I have to say, I believe because it technically was taken out of the DSM-5 for political purposes. You know, people felt it was sort of like making trans people look mentally ill or something. Yeah, they’re like it makes them look mentally ill or crazy, but my whole thing is like I don’t think people who have mental illness are bad people allowing us to just talk honestly about the fact that it is a mental disorder and allows people to understand us cuz if to the average person and to me if I were to step outside of it and be like okay so you transition to a girl but you don’t think that has anything to do with your brain or like anything, anything chemically went wrong, then what is it?

Try following what she said with understanding. The only people she suggested were not mentally ill were those who called themselves trans but that she considered were actually not. Check out TikTok for evidence of those!

By the way, where did you dig up that video which shows Adam and Eve as white skinned people? They look like Bfrits from Sevenoaks!!
There's no science in you, brunumb. Just prejudices.

Good grief! The image is just a cover picture and has nothing to do with the content of the clip. Are you really going to clutch at such flimsy straws? Try rebutting what Saad actually said.

I do not usually share any personal details on the internet but let me say this to answer part of your questions. I went to university on a scholarship based on my academic achievement. I studied chemistry, physics, mathematics, biochemistry and cell biology. I topped my cohort in Honours year with a 1st, and won another scholarship to study for a PhD in chemistry. I feel that I am qualified enough to offer contributions within a science discussion. Religion maybe not so much.

[brunumb]

Yah!!! And brunumb is probably smelly, hairy and all covered in warts as well!

Really? I've never seen him.

I take it that you have no problem with misgendering me then?
Par for the course.

[Clownboat]

And which readers bothered to answer you, eh?

My dear oldbadger, they are 'readers' by definition. Why good sir would you expect readers to supply answers? They are reading.
Please note:
Replies: 174
Views: 2259

You're so worried about how nasty old lady neighbours should be handled that I begin to believe that's what you might be.

That is what you have garnered from our debate so far, that I might be a nasty old lady neighbor?
Surely you must be starting to understand as to why I'm addressing the readers more and more, especially with your continued examples like this one.

I expect that Transgender haters and phobics can be found all over, but what reasonable and decent communities need to do is to ignore them as much as possible, but where their nastines turns in to any kind of provocation, harassment or incitement then to report such actions and leave decisions to police, I guess.

So if an elderly lady continued to use the wrong pronoun when addressing her neighbor, would you argue to get the law involved or would you argue to ignore her? Ignoring her would be to not seek to dominate and control her, something you claimed you don't do which is what started this entire conversation that somehow has made you arrive at the conclusion that I'm a nasty old lady neighbor.

oldbadger: I would not seek to dominate or control others.
Clownboat: What about an elderly lady that continues to use the wrong pronoun for her neighbor? Would you seek to dominate and control her via laws?
oldbadger: I believe you're an old lady!
Clownboat:
I guess I'll address those reading here.

[oldbadger]

And which readers bothered to answer you, eh?

My dear oldbadger, they are 'readers' by definition. Why good sir would you expect readers to supply answers? They are reading.
Please note:
Replies: 174
Views: 2259

You're so worried about how nasty old lady neighbours should be handled that I begin to believe that's what you might be.

That is what you have garnered from our debate so far, that I might be a nasty old lady neighbor?
Surely you must be starting to understand as to why I'm addressing the readers more and more, especially with your continued examples like this one.

I expect that Transgender haters and phobics can be found all over, but what reasonable and decent communities need to do is to ignore them as much as possible, but where their nastines turns in to any kind of provocation, harassment or incitement then to report such actions and leave decisions to police, I guess.

So if an elderly lady continued to use the wrong pronoun when addressing her neighbor, would you argue to get the law involved or would you argue to ignore her? Ignoring her would be to not seek to dominate and control her, something you claimed you don't do which is what started this entire conversation that somehow has made you arrive at the conclusion that I'm a nasty old lady neighbor.

oldbadger: I would not seek to dominate or control others.
Clownboat: What about an elderly lady that continues to use the wrong pronoun for her neighbor? Would you seek to dominate and control her via laws?
oldbadger: I believe you're an old lady!
Clownboat:
I guess I'll address those reading here.

Clownboat's mission:- To provide the freedom to nasty old women to be able to insult and upset neighbours as they see fit.

Go to it!

[Clownboat]

Clownboat's mission:- To provide the freedom to nasty old women to be able to insult and upset neighbours as they see fit.

Go to it!

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. - Socrates

Readers, ask yourself which is vile, or perhaps both are vile to some degree?:
An old lady using the wrong pronoun on purpose, or oldbadger calling such a person a nasty old women. Obviously both are insulting and cause offence. Should we really seek to incarcerate the old lady or oldbadger though? I would prefer neither go to the clink in this instance. I say, let people be free to see what type of person the old lady, by her own words of course. The same can be said of oldbadger, but neither should require law enforcements involvement IMO as that would be to seek to dominate and control them.

[otseng]

Clownboat's mission:- To provide the freedom to nasty old women to be able to insult and upset neighbours as they see fit.

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[tam]

Peace to you all,

Human sexuality is binary. Sex is determined at conception and one's body is what one grows up with.

People who call out this stuff are seeking to control and subdue the lives and loves of others.
No wonder that some transgenders are angry.

There have been and always will be people who want to live as the opposite sex. OK, no big deal. There is no need to turn society on its head by making those people the focus of everything we say and do. None of that is to say that we should mistreat those people who express themselves differently in any way.

So leave them alone and let them be free.

I now understand why you began the topic concerning experts.

I didn't........... it is a thread!
I don't trust in the word at all. You won't ever see a post of mine that sells an idea because an 'expert' said so.

There is a difference between transvestism and transgenderism by the way.

Of course there is, but since I have not known any transgenders I made mention of a transvestite.

You said the same things I was thinking, oldbadger (peace to you!)

Seriously, I feel like I walked into the twilight zone reading the tail end of this thread. So I went back to the beginning. I thought, surely I must be mistaken that (some) atheists (and/or the non-religious) are arguing against transgenderism. Using terms like "so-called" transgenders. Isn't it supposed to be the religious people who are doing this kind of thing? Did no one learn from the way gay people have been treated and looked down upon? Did gay people not struggle against the same thinking as being displayed here?

It is fear and ignorance. I admit to having suffered some of that myself. But we can always arm ourselves with some knowledge, right?


Oldbadger might not know any people who are transgender... but I do know transgender people. Inside and outside of my family. The one closest to me knew as a teenager, but did not come out as transgender for more than a decade later. (I had more details added here, but I changed my mind about sharing them.) As for people 'changing their mind' about their gender, from what I understand after some discussions, it can be a journey (or at least appear to us to be a journey). It is pretty normal for a gay man to have had girlfriends in high school or later. Gay men can be married to women before realizing or accepting their sexuality. Sometimes people might not accept themselves; sometimes they might know only that something is different, but not know what. Why would it be different for someone who is transgender?

These are not my stories to tell, so the details are deliberately vague... and you know what, I'm a little uncomfortable even doing this (hence I removed some details above and also at the end of this post). Someone once tried to justify something about me and my child many years back (without me knowing; I just happened to overhear), and I was not grateful. I was just mad. I didn't owe that person an explanation; it was none of their business. Kind of the same thing here.

None of this is ANY of your business.

People should not have to justify their sexuality or their gender to you.

You are not owed an explanation.


**

I can understand some concern for young people, though I think some people use that as an excuse to argue against transgenderism to begin with (same as when people said similar things about being gay). But even that is between the child and the parent(s). I am glad that my children are adults, but if one of them had come to me as a child and said they were transgender, I would have fought for their right to be who they said they were, to be called by the name and gender that they chose, and to wear the clothes that they feel comfortable in. I would have worried (at least at the start before researching) if they had wanted to start hormone treatments and surgery before adulthood, because I would not have wanted to make a mistake in that big decision. But since I never had to deal with that, I never researched it. But here is an article I just googled (written by Jack Turban is a resident physician in child and adolescent psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital and McLean Hospital. His research focuses on the mental health of transgender and gender diverse youth.):

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/22/18009020 ... medication

Some good points in there. Might be worth a read.


I had more written, but I think I will just end the post here.


Peace again.

(edited to add: I don't know if it needs to be added, but I will add that the decision about a young person is between that young person, their parents, and of course the physician/appropriate medical person. What might be right for one person might not be right for another person.)