Is being Transgender a choice?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm of the opinion that gender expression is a result of social conditioning. I know I used the word "choice" in the title, but that's only because people tend to associate behavior that can be changed or conditioned as being a "choice" (borrowing from the debate on born this way vs. choice).

In this thread, I want to focus on being transgender. Based on my above opinion, I also believe that being transgender is also a result of social conditioning (i.e. childhood experiences, what they learn from society, etc). If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I also bring these points up because when some parents complain about their kids learning about transgenderism in school, the reaction is that it won't impact (some say "groom" ) the child into becoming transgender. If my view is correct, I think the pro-trans crowd should acknowledge that it can potentially influence children AND there's nothing wrong with that.

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?
2. Edit: Removed. Teaching kids about gender identity can be a separate thread.

[brunumb]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #20]

I doubt that you really watched/listened to the discussion with an open mind. Miriam Grossman is just one of many trying to enlighten us on the truth of this flawed ideology. Ask questions and you will get answers. Try that with activists or the ideologically captured and you will just get abuse.

Society has gone overboard with the worship of sexuality. Flags, books, pageants everywhere you look. Children from infants up now being exposed to what would have been regarded as adult-only material or even porn a few decades ago. When did sexuality become the prime concern of society? It has all been driven by the activism of a few hysterical people basing their whole ideology on lies and false information.

Human sexuality is binary. Sex is determined at conception and one's body is what one grows up with. Being in the wrong body is an impossibility so a belief in that is a sign of a mental disorder. People cannot change their sex. They can alter their appearance and express themselves as the opposite, but they are still the same sex regardless of what changes they make. These are all scientific facts devoid of any baggage that is often used to try and misinform those ruled by their emotions rather than truth. Encouraging young people to run with the idea that their feeling of being the wrong sex is correct and the best thing is to accommodate those feelings by chemically and physically altering them is abuse rather than care.

There have been and always will be people who want to live as the opposite sex. OK, no big deal. There is no need to turn society on its head by making those people the focus of everything we say and do. None of that is to say that we should mistreat those people who express themselves differently in any way.

I now understand why you began the topic concerning experts. The experts are the ones who are knocking down this absurd gender ideology. They have pointed out the disgusting history of Dr John Money and the catastrophic outcomes of his gender experiment. The activists are operating in a vacuum lacking in evidence and support for their claims. That is why their tactics always involve aggression and cancellation rather than reasoned discussion. They always get demolished when they engage in the latter.

There is a difference between transvestism and transgenderism by the way. What is really weird is that some so-called transgender people make little or no attempt to express themselves as their 'preferred' gender. In a lot of cases it seems that we have narcissistic, self-centred people engaging in nothing more than role play for likes and clicks on social media. Those actually trying to simply live their lives as the opposite of their biological sex will end up as collateral damage in this ideological battle.

[oldbadger]

Human sexuality is binary. Sex is determined at conception and one's body is what one grows up with.

People who call out this stuff are seeking to control and subdue the lives and loves of others.
No wonder that some transgenders are angry.

There have been and always will be people who want to live as the opposite sex. OK, no big deal. There is no need to turn society on its head by making those people the focus of everything we say and do. None of that is to say that we should mistreat those people who express themselves differently in any way.

So leave them alone and let them be free.

I now understand why you began the topic concerning experts.

I didn't........... it is a thread!
I don't trust in the word at all. You won't ever see a post of mine that sells an idea because an 'expert' said so.

There is a difference between transvestism and transgenderism by the way.

Of course there is, but since I have not known any transgenders I made mention of a transvestite.

[brunumb]

Human sexuality is binary. Sex is determined at conception and one's body is what one grows up with.

People who call out this stuff are seeking to control and subdue the lives and loves of others.

No, they're not. It is a statement of fact. It does not deny that a few people have a mental condition where they believe they are in the wrong body. It does not deny the right of adults choosing to live according to that belief. It does deny that affirming these false ideas in the young is the right course of action. If you want to talk about controlling and subduing the lives of others, just take a look at the tactics trans activists engage in. No presentation of evidence and facts, just aggression and cancellation.

[brunumb]

There have been and always will be people who want to live as the opposite sex. OK, no big deal. There is no need to turn society on its head by making those people the focus of everything we say and do. None of that is to say that we should mistreat those people who express themselves differently in any way.

So leave them alone and let them be free.

No one is denying that freedom! You seem to have totally misunderstood the key issue here. On the basis of false science and biology, young people are being convinced that their self-diagnoses are correct and they are being unnecessarily thrust onto the treadmill if gender conversion by chemical and medical interventions. This is not as simple as changing the way they dress and act. Parental rights are being stripped away in the name of affirmation rather than treatment. Freedom of speech is being eroded. The consequences of this gender ideology are far reaching and damaging to society.

[brunumb]

I don't trust in the word at all. You won't ever see a post of mine that sells an idea because an 'expert' said so.

I'm not suggesting that you have. It seems that what you are doing is more like the denial of expertise we see when the religious try to counter arguments against their beliefs.

[brunumb]

There is a difference between transvestism and transgenderism by the way.

Of course there is, but since I have not known any transgenders I made mention of a transvestite.

Maybe you are arguing from an errant position in that case.

[oldbadger]

No, they're not. It is a statement of fact. It does not deny that a few people have a mental condition where they believe they are in the wrong body. It does not deny the right of adults choosing to live according to that belief. It does deny that affirming these false ideas in the young is the right course of action. If you want to talk about controlling and subduing the lives of others, just take a look at the tactics trans activists engage in. No presentation of evidence and facts, just aggression and cancellation.

The clue to this is 'where are Trans activists showing such aggression...and cancellation'.
Where.....

They are loudest and angriest where they feel threatened, it's the same with other groups of people who feel threatened.
The answer is to leave them alone.

[oldbadger]

No one is denying that freedom! You seem to have totally misunderstood the key issue here. On the basis of false science and biology, young people are being convinced that their self-diagnoses are correct and they are being unnecessarily thrust onto the treadmill if gender conversion by chemical and medical interventions. This is not as simple as changing the way they dress and act. Parental rights are being stripped away in the name of affirmation rather than treatment. Freedom of speech is being eroded. The consequences of this gender ideology are far reaching and damaging to society.

That's a large number of claims by a layman, you know. False science, False biology, treadmill of gender conversion, chemical interventions, medical interventions, parental rights stripped away, erosion of freedom to speak, damage to society............

Look, I'll pick one of those at random and you can answer just a few questions about that one point, is that fair?
Lets look at your 'medical interventions' and review it in more detail, which of course does include any parental rights.

[oldbadger]

I'm not suggesting that you have. It seems that what you are doing is more like the denial of expertise we see when the religious try to counter arguments against their beliefs.

So who is a religious 'expert'? Who?
If you can counter the arguments of denialists in any discussion about a particular religion, then just put your case to them.

Do you think that you are a religious expert? If not, then who is?
I've just been reading a book by a man who translated the Dead Sea scrolls in to English and who has such intimate knowledge of the gospels that he can show how each one changed the nature of Jesus from man to Lord to God. He was a Catholic Priest. But apart from his ability with language his opinion is just that.....his opinion. You can't win any debating battles by telling us what a person's opinion is.

[oldbadger]

Maybe you are arguing from an errant position in that case.

I had written:- Of course there is, but since I have not known any transgenders I made mention of a transvestite.

So you tell me that in not knowing any transgenders personally my position is errant.
So please tell us how many transgenders you know personally.
How, when and where did you come to know them?