Is God evil?

[Compassionist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil? Surely, a good God would have made all living things to be autotrophs instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores, and some parasites? Here are some examples of evil events which caused or are causing suffering, deaths, and injustices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #69]

I see lots and lots of evil and God's total failure to prevent them.

That is a heavy bias to bear. No wonder you appear to be in a state of perpetual suffering.

I have to consider the possibility that you were predestined for that particular role and that you chose it for yourself, and therein, wonder what the purpose of doing so might be.

It appears to me that Theism meets the problem half way and finds hope in the seemingly hopeless.

[Compassionist]

We don't choose the thoughts that pop up. We do have a degree of choice about what to do with the thoughts that pop up. So, I do some deliberating about my responses to you and others. All living things have biases. I try to get to the truth about reality to the best of my abilities.

Why, if our decisions are controlled, would we deliberate at all? It accomplishes nothing or would be a very inefficient way to determine our will.

The problem with your third option about free will is that it ignores the fact that no organism chooses the genes they inherit or the environment they grow in…

No, it doesn’t ignore that at all. It accepts that. It says those genes and environment are very influential in limiting what choices are available to the will. It just says there is no reason to think those things determine our actual choices.

Why do you think that God is real and not evil?

As I said before, I can't decide whether God is evil and imaginary or evil and real. A real and good God who is all-knowing and all-powerful would have prevented all suffering, injustice, and deaths by making all living things autotrophs and all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful.

The main reason is that a God who did this would seem to me to destroy the possibility of love. I think a world with love (which necessarily provides the ability for evil) is better than a world without love and perfect moral actions.

Have you looked at https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/list.html ? What are your thoughts and feelings about the contents of the websites?

I am very familiar with the content, if not directly from reading these sites in full. I've read bits and pieces as people have brought them up. Large picture, I think most of their interpretations rest on reading the stories out of context. Not just the direct context of some of these passages, but also by reading these stories as though they weren’t written thousands of years ago by people in a very different culture. If you have more specific questions, I’m always open to sharing those thoughts.

The way we make decisions is determined by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Have you read "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for A Hat" by the neurologist Oliver Sacks? The book has many fascinating and tragic stories of people with neurological afflictions. One of the stories is about a man who has visual agnosia. He can see but he mislabels what he sees. So, he mistook his wife for a hat. The decision-making process in his brain is different from the decision-making process in a healthy brain. The deliberations in our brain are the result of the electrochemical activities of the brain. These activities are the consequence of genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. The process is deterministic. Please prove to me how free will can exist in brains made of molecules. Also, please prove to me how God is real and good given all the past, present and future suffering, injustice, and deaths.

As I have said before, love does not require free will. It is a product our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. I love all living things and want all to be forever happy. I am compelled by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences to feel this way. There is nothing free about my will.

The two websites I referred you to list lots of atrocities carried out either directly by God or by followers of God obeying commands from God. Committing atrocities and ordering his followers to commit atrocities make God evil.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #69]

I see lots and lots of evil and God's total failure to prevent them.

That is a heavy bias to bear. No wonder you appear to be in a state of perpetual suffering.

I have to consider the possibility that you were predestined for that particular role and that you chose it for yourself, and therein, wonder what the purpose of doing so might be.

It appears to me that Theism meets the problem half way and finds hope in the seemingly hopeless.

What bias are you talking about? If God predestined our lives, then we are prisoners of his will.

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #73]

What bias are you talking about?

The propensity to conflate "we exist within a creation" with "The creator/creators must therefore be evil"

If God predestined our lives, then we are prisoners of his will.

That all depends upon what storyline one is following...I find the idea that an all knowing entity creator/creators making us prisoners of Its/their will to - logically - build a stress-free environment in my mind, even in the midst of storms of suffering and death out in the world.

[neverknewyou]

Is God evil?

More like just plain stupid.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #73]

What bias are you talking about?

The propensity to conflate "we exist within a creation" with "The creator/creators must therefore be evil"

If God predestined our lives, then we are prisoners of his will.

That all depends upon what storyline one is following...I find the idea that an all knowing entity creator/creators making us prisoners of Its/their will to - logically - build a stress-free environment in my mind, even in the midst of storms of suffering and death out in the world.

I am not convinced that we exist in a created reality or that God exists. Please prove that God is real and he created the universe we live in and created all the living things. The Bible is not evidence - it's a book of stories. Biblical stories don't mesh with what we know through the scientific method.

I understand the appeal of religions. Without religion, life's a bitch, then we die. With religion, life's a bitch, then we go to heaven forever. I don't blame you for finding your belief in God comforting. I used to be very religious so I can totally understand.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #1]

Predestination has nothing to do with God choosing what actions you take.

[Athetotheist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil? Surely, a good God would have made all living things to be autotrophs instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores, and some parasites? Here are some examples of evil events which caused or are causing suffering, deaths, and injustices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter

[William]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #76]

I used to be very religious so I can totally understand.

I am not religious myself. I too have gone through theistic thinking, but my conclusions are different from your own, nor do I consider nature to be evil. Perhaps that part of your religious learning has yet to be exorcised...or did you pick up that theme through atheism?

[The Tanager]

The way we make decisions is determined by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Have you read "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for A Hat" by the neurologist Oliver Sacks? The book has many fascinating and tragic stories of people with neurological afflictions. One of the stories is about a man who has visual agnosia. He can see but he mislabels what he sees. So, he mistook his wife for a hat. The decision-making process in his brain is different from the decision-making process in a healthy brain. The deliberations in our brain are the result of the electrochemical activities of the brain. These activities are the consequence of genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. The process is deterministic. Please prove to me how free will can exist in brains made of molecules.

It’s not “determinism unless proven otherwise”. Above all you’ve done is say that these things are determined, not shown why one should think they are. You need to prove your claim that our wills are determined. Remember, I’m not saying every choice is wide-open free, but that within limitations (some we all have, some only some have) we can have free choices.

If you are saying it is illogical for a free will to exist with a brain made of molecules, then you need to give that argument because I don’t see why that would be the case.

Also, please prove to me how God is real and good given all the past, present and future suffering, injustice, and deaths.

Without God, how is anything truly unjust? On what basis do you define injustice? Saying “what harms is unjust” is just changing out one term (harm) for the one asked about (unjust), making them synonyms. On what basis do you define what is harmful?

As I have said before, love does not require free will. It is a product our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. I love all living things and want all to be forever happy. I am compelled by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences to feel this way. There is nothing free about my will.

Define how you are using love. Intense feelings? Having an interest in something? Willing the good of another? Something else?

The two websites I referred you to list lots of atrocities carried out either directly by God or by followers of God obeying commands from God. Committing atrocities and ordering his followers to commit atrocities make God evil.

I responded generally that I don’t think those websites rightly consider context in many of their claims, thus misunderstanding the whole picture and that if you wanted to go over specifics, we could do that. I’m still open to that.

But, assume that there are still atrocities when all is said and done. How does that speak against the existence of God rather than against the belief that the Bible accurately portrays God?