Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Jose Fly
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Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

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Post by Jose Fly »

In another thread I expressed that I don't really understand many of the behaviors I frequently see from creationists. One of those behaviors is how they seem to not only think themselves experts in a wide variety of scientific fields, they seem to believe that their knowledge and expertise is superior to the actual professionals in those fields. Thus, we often see them attempt to debate against the work of professionals by mere assertion (IOW, "because I say so").

In that earlier thread, several folks (correctly) noted that such behavior can be explained by the Dunning-Kruger Effect. While I agree that it explains what they're doing, it still doesn't really explain why they do it or how they are seemingly oblivious to it.

The other day I came across this article....

Overconfidence and Opposition to Scientific Consensus
The recent study – Knowledge overconfidence is associated with anti-consensus views on controversial scientific issues, by Nicholas Light et al, is not surprising but is reassuringly solid in its outcome. The researchers compared peoples objective knowledge about various controversial topics (their knowledge of objective facts), with their subjective knowledge (assessment of their own knowledge) and opposition to consensus views. They found a robust effect in which opposition increased as the gap between objective and subjective knowledge increased (see graphs above the fold).

This may remind you of Dunning Kruger – the less people know the more they overestimate their knowledge (although subjective knowledge still decreases, just not as fast as objective knowledge). This is more of a super DK, those who know the least think they know the most. This has been found previously with specific topics – safety of GM food, genetic manipulation, and vaccines and autism. In addition to the super DK effect, this study shows that is correlates well with opposition to scientific consensus.

This study does not fully establish what causes such opposition, just correlates it with a dramatic lack of humility, lack of knowledge, and overestimation of one’s knowledge. There are studies and speculation trying to discern the ultimate causes of this pattern, and they are likely different for different issues. The classic explanation is the knowledge deficit model, that this pattern emerges as a result of lack of objective knowledge. But his model is mostly not true for most topics, although knowledge is still important and can even be dominant with some issues, like GM food. There is also the “cultural cognition” model, which posits that people hold beliefs in line with their culture (including political, social, and religious subcultures). This also is highly relevant for some issues more than others, like rejection of evolutionary science.

Other factors that have been implicated include cognitive style, with intuitive thinkers being more likely to fall into this opposition pattern than analytical thinkers. Intuitive thinking also correlates with another variable, conspiracy thinking, that also correlates with the rejection of consensus. Conspiracy thinking seems to occur in two flavors. There is opportunistic conspiracy thinking in which it seems to be not the driver of the false belief but a reinforcer. But there are also dedicated conspiracy theorists, who will accept any conspiracy, for which conspiracy thinking appears to be the driver.
So to put this in context of my question (why do some exhibit the D-K Effect), the research described in this article indicates that it's due to a combination of factors: lack of humility, one's cultural environment, intuitive-type thinking, conspiracy thinking

The topic for debate: Do you agree with that? Do you see this "super D-K" applying to some of the discussions/debates in this forum? Do you think there are other factors the researchers may have missed?

For me, these explanations line up quite well with the behaviors I commonly notice among creationists, most notably the lack of humility. IMO, that explains why creationists are so prone to argue via empty assertion. They think so highly of themselves, they figure "because I say so" is a valid form of argumentation and don't seem to really understand why the rest of us don't.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #51

Post by Jose Fly »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:04 pm The entire crux of your OP is that Creationists reject the scientific consensus and they act as if they know more than actual scientists on the subject matter.
As you've done here in this thread.
And I merely pointed out a guy who is a scientist, who knows his stuff, and who also rejects the scientific consensus.

Makes sense?
He's also a creationist who rejected the scientific consensus about evolution before he began his education in science, which also serves to illustrate the point of the OP.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:08 pm As you've done here in this thread.
You disagree with Christian theologians, don't you? Well then.
He's also a creationist who rejected the scientific consensus about evolution before he began his education in science, which also serves to illustrate the point of the OP.
Well, his education in science only confirmed his original hypothesis. Ain't that how science works?
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

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Post by Jose Fly »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:11 pm You disagree with Christian theologians, don't you? Well then.
On what?
Well, his education in science only confirmed his original hypothesis. Ain't that how science works?
No, not at all. And he didn't have a "hypothesis", he had a religious mission.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #54

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:17 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:11 pm You disagree with Christian theologians, don't you? Well then.
On what?
Let me rephrase that...I mean "Christian theists". You disagree with them about the existence of God...don't you?
No, not at all. And he didn't have a "hypothesis", he had a religious mission.
I disagree with your sentiments. The bottom line is, he does not believe in macroevolution, and he rejects the presented evidence supporting it. So do I. So do many people.

We can care less about consensus' or popularity contests in science.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #55

Post by Jose Fly »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:21 pm Let me rephrase that...I mean "Christian theists". You disagree with them about the existence of God...don't you?
Irrelevant to this thread, which is about scientific consensus.
I disagree with your sentiments.
So you actually think "I'm going to follow Reverend Sun Myung Moon's guidance and destroy Darwinism" is a scientific hypothesis? Well that certainly says a lot.
The bottom line is, he does not believe in macroevolution, and he rejects the presented evidence supporting it. So do I. So do many people.

We can care less about consensus' or popularity contests in science.
And other people feel the same about a spherical earth. So what?
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #56

Post by Difflugia »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:00 pmI got $100 on Hovind.
If you're the one evaluating how good his arguments are, I have no doubt you'll win.

If the audience knows the subject matter, though, Hovind doesn't even need a debate opponent to lose to.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #57

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Jose Fly in post #1]

We said no to Rome and we say no to you.

Why is that so hurtful to religious types?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #58

Post by Jose Fly »

Wootah wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:30 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #1]

We said no to Rome and we say no to you.

Why is that so hurtful to religious types?
Sorry, I'm not sure what your point is.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #59

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #45]
Those guys were destroyed and it was cringeworthy to watch.
Here's a description of another "debate" with Hovind from 2004 ... 14 years before the one you linked. This is from his opponent, who also used the word "destroyed" (referring to his treatment of Hovind), but pointed out two things correctly:

1) Hovind doesn't do these events to actually debate ... he's there to preach the gospel.

2) His method of supporting young earth creationism (YEC) is to bash evolution and imply by default that YEC is the only alternative.

If he actually tried to support YEC in a debate by arguing with evidence he knows he'd be completely unarmed ... and he's at least smart enough to avoid that approach.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #60

Post by The Barbarian »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:14 pm First of all, perhaps YOU don't know what "macroevolution" is.

The evolution of a new species is not macrovevolution. It is microevolution.
Perhaps you don't know what "macroevolution" is. It's the evolution of new species. I even showed you the scientific definition from a dictionary of biology.
A dog, wolf, and coyote are different species...but they are still the same "kind" of animal.
"Kind" is an informal term that has no meaning in taxonomy.
The Bible states that the animals will bring forth after their kinds.
Nope. Read it:
Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds.
What we don't see is reptiles evolving into birds.
Well, that's a testable belief. Tell me if Archaeopteryx is a bird or a reptile, and explain how you decided. What do you have?
That would more than just speciation. That would be an animal from one genus evolving into an entirely different/new genus.
Answers in Genesis says that new genera are produced by existing ones. Perhaps you need to learn more about creationism as well.
To believe that is to rely on faith. The unobserved. The unseen.
Well, let's ask a YE creationist who is familiar with the evidence:

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution.

YE creationist, Dr. Todd Wood The Truth About Evolution

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