Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

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Post by Jose Fly »

In another thread I expressed that I don't really understand many of the behaviors I frequently see from creationists. One of those behaviors is how they seem to not only think themselves experts in a wide variety of scientific fields, they seem to believe that their knowledge and expertise is superior to the actual professionals in those fields. Thus, we often see them attempt to debate against the work of professionals by mere assertion (IOW, "because I say so").

In that earlier thread, several folks (correctly) noted that such behavior can be explained by the Dunning-Kruger Effect. While I agree that it explains what they're doing, it still doesn't really explain why they do it or how they are seemingly oblivious to it.

The other day I came across this article....

Overconfidence and Opposition to Scientific Consensus
The recent study – Knowledge overconfidence is associated with anti-consensus views on controversial scientific issues, by Nicholas Light et al, is not surprising but is reassuringly solid in its outcome. The researchers compared peoples objective knowledge about various controversial topics (their knowledge of objective facts), with their subjective knowledge (assessment of their own knowledge) and opposition to consensus views. They found a robust effect in which opposition increased as the gap between objective and subjective knowledge increased (see graphs above the fold).

This may remind you of Dunning Kruger – the less people know the more they overestimate their knowledge (although subjective knowledge still decreases, just not as fast as objective knowledge). This is more of a super DK, those who know the least think they know the most. This has been found previously with specific topics – safety of GM food, genetic manipulation, and vaccines and autism. In addition to the super DK effect, this study shows that is correlates well with opposition to scientific consensus.

This study does not fully establish what causes such opposition, just correlates it with a dramatic lack of humility, lack of knowledge, and overestimation of one’s knowledge. There are studies and speculation trying to discern the ultimate causes of this pattern, and they are likely different for different issues. The classic explanation is the knowledge deficit model, that this pattern emerges as a result of lack of objective knowledge. But his model is mostly not true for most topics, although knowledge is still important and can even be dominant with some issues, like GM food. There is also the “cultural cognition” model, which posits that people hold beliefs in line with their culture (including political, social, and religious subcultures). This also is highly relevant for some issues more than others, like rejection of evolutionary science.

Other factors that have been implicated include cognitive style, with intuitive thinkers being more likely to fall into this opposition pattern than analytical thinkers. Intuitive thinking also correlates with another variable, conspiracy thinking, that also correlates with the rejection of consensus. Conspiracy thinking seems to occur in two flavors. There is opportunistic conspiracy thinking in which it seems to be not the driver of the false belief but a reinforcer. But there are also dedicated conspiracy theorists, who will accept any conspiracy, for which conspiracy thinking appears to be the driver.
So to put this in context of my question (why do some exhibit the D-K Effect), the research described in this article indicates that it's due to a combination of factors: lack of humility, one's cultural environment, intuitive-type thinking, conspiracy thinking

The topic for debate: Do you agree with that? Do you see this "super D-K" applying to some of the discussions/debates in this forum? Do you think there are other factors the researchers may have missed?

For me, these explanations line up quite well with the behaviors I commonly notice among creationists, most notably the lack of humility. IMO, that explains why creationists are so prone to argue via empty assertion. They think so highly of themselves, they figure "because I say so" is a valid form of argumentation and don't seem to really understand why the rest of us don't.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

The Barbarian wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:46 pm The point is that Wells started with a presupposition that evolution was false. And because his religion depended on that he never could get by that presupposition.
And the point is also that evolutionists presuppose that evolution is true...and because their religion (macroevolution is a religion) depended on that, they can never get by that presupposition.

They already presupposed evolution is true, so when the found the fossilized archaeopteryx, their presupposition allowed them to conclude that this was the transitional fossil from reptile to bird...instead of simply concluding "Wow, birds of the distant past must have had teeth".
Note that creationism isn't the only weird thing he believes in. He's convinced that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.
And?
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #42

Post by DaveD49 »

Jose Fly wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:21 pm In another thread I expressed that I don't really understand many of the behaviors I frequently see from creationists. One of those behaviors is how they seem to not only think themselves experts in a wide variety of scientific fields, they seem to believe that their knowledge and expertise is superior to the actual professionals in those fields. Thus, we often see them attempt to debate against the work of professionals by mere assertion (IOW, "because I say so").

In that earlier thread, several folks (correctly) noted that such behavior can be explained by the Dunning-Kruger Effect. While I agree that it explains what they're doing, it still doesn't really explain why they do it or how they are seemingly oblivious to it.

The other day I came across this article....

Overconfidence and Opposition to Scientific Consensus
The recent study – Knowledge overconfidence is associated with anti-consensus views on controversial scientific issues, by Nicholas Light et al, is not surprising but is reassuringly solid in its outcome. The researchers compared peoples objective knowledge about various controversial topics (their knowledge of objective facts), with their subjective knowledge (assessment of their own knowledge) and opposition to consensus views. They found a robust effect in which opposition increased as the gap between objective and subjective knowledge increased (see graphs above the fold).

This may remind you of Dunning Kruger – the less people know the more they overestimate their knowledge (although subjective knowledge still decreases, just not as fast as objective knowledge). This is more of a super DK, those who know the least think they know the most. This has been found previously with specific topics – safety of GM food, genetic manipulation, and vaccines and autism. In addition to the super DK effect, this study shows that is correlates well with opposition to scientific consensus.

This study does not fully establish what causes such opposition, just correlates it with a dramatic lack of humility, lack of knowledge, and overestimation of one’s knowledge. There are studies and speculation trying to discern the ultimate causes of this pattern, and they are likely different for different issues. The classic explanation is the knowledge deficit model, that this pattern emerges as a result of lack of objective knowledge. But his model is mostly not true for most topics, although knowledge is still important and can even be dominant with some issues, like GM food. There is also the “cultural cognition” model, which posits that people hold beliefs in line with their culture (including political, social, and religious subcultures). This also is highly relevant for some issues more than others, like rejection of evolutionary science.

Other factors that have been implicated include cognitive style, with intuitive thinkers being more likely to fall into this opposition pattern than analytical thinkers. Intuitive thinking also correlates with another variable, conspiracy thinking, that also correlates with the rejection of consensus. Conspiracy thinking seems to occur in two flavors. There is opportunistic conspiracy thinking in which it seems to be not the driver of the false belief but a reinforcer. But there are also dedicated conspiracy theorists, who will accept any conspiracy, for which conspiracy thinking appears to be the driver.
So to put this in context of my question (why do some exhibit the D-K Effect), the research described in this article indicates that it's due to a combination of factors: lack of humility, one's cultural environment, intuitive-type thinking, conspiracy thinking

The topic for debate: Do you agree with that? Do you see this "super D-K" applying to some of the discussions/debates in this forum? Do you think there are other factors the researchers may have missed?

For me, these explanations line up quite well with the behaviors I commonly notice among creationists, most notably the lack of humility. IMO, that explains why creationists are so prone to argue via empty assertion. They think so highly of themselves, they figure "because I say so" is a valid form of argumentation and don't seem to really understand why the rest of us don't.
Oh please.... Do you actually think that this would apply only to creationists?????? Just as many, if not more, atheists do the exact same thing.

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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #43

Post by Jose Fly »

DaveD49 wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:01 pm Oh please.... Do you actually think that this would apply only to creationists??????
Nope, never said that.
Just as many, if not more, atheists do the exact same thing.
Any specific examples?
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #44

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

The Barbarian wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:46 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:35 pm You said all of that, and macroevolution is no more true than it was before you said it.
Since it's been directly observed, that's not an issue. Perhaps you don't know what "macroevolution" is. It's the evolution of new species.

Even groups like Answers in Genesis now admit that speciation is a fact.
First of all, perhaps YOU don't know what "macroevolution" is.

The evolution of a new species is not macrovevolution. It is microevolution.

A dog, wolf, and coyote are different species...but they are still the same "kind" of animal.

That is microevolution...changes from within the kind.

The Bible states that the animals will bring forth after their kinds. Read it.

That is what we see; canines producing canines, felines producing felines, etc.

What we don't see is reptiles evolving into birds. That would more than just speciation. That would be an animal from one genus evolving into an entirely different/new genus.

To believe that is to rely on faith. The unobserved. The unseen.

It is voodoo science, is what it is.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #45

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

DrNoGods wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:57 pm A slaughter fest? Really? That video was a hilarious display of Hovind vomiting out the usual nonsense he is (in)famous for. He's demonstrably wrong on just about every point he tries to make
I don't believe you honestly feel that way. You are just riding for the home team (evolution). Those guys were destroyed and it was cringeworthy to watch.
, and as always (and to this day even after spending 9 years in jail for various crimes)
Yeah, something about tax evasion. :D
his goal in life is to con people out of money by any means he can come up with. His shtick is the same YEC supporting, anti-evolution show he's been hustling since his fake Ph.D was mailed to him and he assigned himself the moniker "Dr. Dino."

Of all the religious people who could be chosen as a go-to person for science, this felon and con artist is the last person who should qualify. He has no legitimate science education, and has lost every debate he's ever engaged in with any actual scientist. No one should listen to him regarding anything science related as he has zero credentials, and an agenda to push that is all about getting donations, selling books and podcast merch, and making a buck for Kent Hovind. Actual science education is the last thing he cares anything about.
Ad hominems.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #46

Post by Difflugia »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:21 pm
DrNoGods wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:57 pmA slaughter fest? Really? That video was a hilarious display of Hovind vomiting out the usual nonsense he is (in)famous for. He's demonstrably wrong on just about every point he tries to make
I don't believe you honestly feel that way. You are just riding for the home team (evolution). Those guys were destroyed and it was cringeworthy to watch.
You and I had a very similar conversation before. The "cringeworthy" part is Hovind's incorrect statements about scientific topics. I pointed them out to you and you responded:
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:15 amThat was all a little over my head, admittedly. I don't know who is right and who is wrong, but I'm rocking with Hovind. :D
Your criterion for "destroyed" is apparently based on something other than an informed evaluation of the arguments. I suspect that is also true of the overwhelming majority of Hovind's audience.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:21 pm
DrNoGods wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:57 pmActual science education is the last thing he cares anything about.
Ad hominems.
You yourself said that the subject matter was over your head, so your own argument was nothing more than a personal appraisal of Kent Hovind, which is ad hominem. When it's in a positive sense, it's usually called an "argument from authority," but you certainly have yet to make a case ad argumentum.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:17 pm What exactly is your point? Is there something specific from Wells that you find particularly persuasive?
Yeah. His arguments which goes against the grain...as it pertains to evolution.

He was interviewed in Lee Strobel's book "A Case for a Creator", and I found what he said to be persuasive, and he is now one of my go-to guys.

That, followed by there is always something about detractors that I find intriguing.

All it take is one detractor, and that one detractor can cause the headaches of millions.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #48

Post by Jose Fly »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:52 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:17 pm What exactly is your point? Is there something specific from Wells that you find particularly persuasive?
Yeah. His arguments which goes against the grain...as it pertains to evolution.

He was interviewed in Lee Strobel's book "A Case for a Creator", and I found what he said to be persuasive, and he is now one of my go-to guys.

That, followed by there is always something about detractors that I find intriguing.

All it take is one detractor, and that one detractor can cause the headaches of millions.
Again I don't know what your point is. You find Wells to be persuasive. So what?
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #49

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Difflugia wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:41 pm You and I had a very similar conversation before. The "cringeworthy" part is Hovind's incorrect statements about scientific topics. I pointed them out to you and you responded:

"That was all a little over my head, admittedly. I don't know who is right and who is wrong, but I'm rocking with Hovind. :D"
That is a quote without context.

I know enough about evolution in as far as I speak on the matter. Do I know all of the nook and cranny nuances about it? No.

But I know enough about it to say what I say...about it.
Your criterion for "destroyed" is apparently based on something other than an informed evaluation of the arguments. I suspect that is also true of the overwhelming majority of Hovind's audience.
Then I encourage you to contact Mr. Hovind and challenge him to debate on the subject of is evolution true.

Make it a public debate, and lets have it posted on youtube...and lets see how well you do.

I got $100 on Hovind.
You yourself said that the subject matter was over your head, so your own argument was nothing more than a personal appraisal of Kent Hovind, which is ad hominem. When it's in a positive sense, it's usually called an "argument from authority," but you certainly have yet to make a case ad argumentum.
A lot of stuff in science goes over my head...that is why I only speak on what I know, not what I don't know.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #50

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:57 pm Again I don't know what your point is. You find Wells to be persuasive. So what?
Reading comprehension.

The entire crux of your OP is that Creationists reject the scientific consensus and they act as if they know more than actual scientists on the subject matter.

And I merely pointed out a guy who is a scientist, who knows his stuff, and who also rejects the scientific consensus.

Makes sense?
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