Mythological Scripture accepted as History

[The Nice Centurion]

A post in this thread made me think:
viewtopic.php?t=25006

Note that there is a difference between discussion of religion and discussion of history (though either can contain some reference to the other).

Few, if any, scholars or theologians regard the bible as a historical document. However, uninformed or minimally informed believers often regard it as historical.

The bible was indeed seen as History by western culture for longer than most people know.
A remarkable example here is the english empyre.
The empyres absolute thrust in biblical historicity sustained its might to swallow other cultures.
Officially all english scholars and scientist believed the whole bible to be history until Darwins works came out.
Then slowly thrust in the bible began to lose its attractivity.
(No wonder christians tend to despise him so!)

Before Darwin young earth creationism reigned supreme.
Though flat earth was the first thing christians had to officially let go a long time before Darwin.
(Therefore flat earth is the first biblical fact christians want to distance themselves from until today!)

Remarkable is the Paradox that scientific minds and studied Scholars for so long accepted the bible without question.

A hundred years ago from now european history schoolbooks still presented Jedus godliness and resurrection as historical fact.

What are the resons for above Paradox?

What other Cultures do and did take for how long scriptural evidence as history?
(I am sure that for example non-secular mohammedan states schoolbooks still present mohammeds phropheteness and quranic historicalicity as proven facts. I am also sure that Brigham Young University does the same with Mormon Phophets propheteness and BoM historical accuracy.)

What about ancient greece for example? Were Ilias and Odyssee or Tales of the greek gods interacting with humans taken as historical fact ?

Arguments from the bible are until today so common that this verx forum had to set a rule concerning them.

But for christians Arguments from the bible remain good weapons of course for apologetics.

Also christians do understandably have to fight for the historicity of Jesus resurrection, at the very least!

Most of christianitx had to let go good things like:
Flat earth
Geocentricism
Young earth

And strong under fire is the historicity of OT heroes like Moses as well as important OT happenings like Exodus which is essentially disproven.

How long can a religion outlive the dwindling historicity of its scripture?

[1213]

I don't claim continents float on water. But, hydraulic force can be strong. If the water below the earth (dry land) can't escape, it can support the landmass. And in this case, by what the Bible tells, there were pillars of earth for extra support. Probably those pillars are now seen in the places of great mountains. I think the Bible story is the best explanation for current continents.

Exactly what is the single giant continent being supported above?

By what the Bible tells, in the beginning our planet was entirely covered by water. Then God stretched dry land above some part of it capturing vast water cavity below earth that was called "the great deep". When the continent was broken, the water from the "great deep" burst free and flooded the sinking parts of the original continent.

Now the earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep. God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Genesis 1:2

To him that stretched out the earth above the waters:"
Psalms 136:6

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep were burst open, and the sky's windows were opened. The rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:11-12

[1213]

Please explain why do you think so?

1) The lack of water in the world to be able to cover the mountains[/quote]

It is not possible because if you add up all the water that has been found in the crust, and all the water in the glaciers , oceans and atmosphere, it does not add up to the amount of water needed to flood the world as described.

It adds up, if you understand that the water has compressed ocean floors so that they are deeper now and it looks like mountains have risen. Mountains don't rise, it is the ocean floor that is compressed and sinks lower, which causes the illusion that there must have been more water than we now have. By this one can also predict consequences of drilling oil and gas that were result of the vast amount of sunken organic material in the great flood (earthquakes, descending water level generally).

2) The amount of rain to cover the mountains in 40 days would be about like the pressure of a fire hose all over the world.
3) The heat generated by that amount of water would cause the water to boil off and turn to steam,
...

Bible tells the water came also from the "fountains of the great deep". It was not all rain water and probably the rain water was a result from the water that came below the dry land.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep were burst open, and the sky's windows were opened. The rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:11-12

[1213]

... the 'hydroplate' theory may look good on a tabletop model of a flat earth with an ocean -filled reservoir with a rock lid over the top. But it doesn't work so well on a round earth where you have effectively a pacific ocean with a curved rock skin over the top. ...

Actually curved form of earth works better, because it is structurally stronger than straight slab, hence the old buildings used usually curved vaults, not straight slabs or beams.

...They were lifted up as mountains by tectonic plate movement. If they are the Flood - remains, how could they be the mountain supports for the hydroplate? The evidence is all against it. ...

I think it is ridiculous belief to think that mountains rise only because of the modern convection theory. It requires magical forces that doesn't really exist in the nature.

By what the Bible tells:
1. the original continent was broken. It means the water below the dry land escaped and flooded the earth. At the same time vast amount of water vapor was released, which caused the heavy rain. Flooding water obviously carried material away from the point where earth was broken, presumably one of these points is the Mid Atlantic ridge. This means sediment layers were formed to those places that the water went first.
2. After the continent was broken, it begun to sunk slowly. Collapsing parts of the continent that form the current continents compressed each others edges, which caused then orogenic mountains to the same locations where the water had carried sediments first.
3. Eventually all dry land was below water and obviously all kind of water animals found the new shallow areas in the areas of mountain tops.
4. And after everything had settled, water level started to get lower, for example because water compressed all drowned stuff and because it was collected to the great glaciers that were the result of cooled climate and ice age that was result of the flood. And then some water animals on high mountain areas were captured to fresh sediments when the water level decreased.

I think this is the best explanation for the marine fossils, orogenic mountains, oil and gas fields and modern continents.

[brunumb]

I don't claim continents float on water. But, hydraulic force can be strong. If the water below the earth (dry land) can't escape, it can support the landmass. And in this case, by what the Bible tells, there were pillars of earth for extra support. Probably those pillars are now seen in the places of great mountains. I think the Bible story is the best explanation for current continents.

Exactly what is the single giant continent being supported above?

By what the Bible tells, in the beginning our planet was entirely covered by water. Then God stretched dry land above some part of it capturing vast water cavity below earth that was called "the great deep". When the continent was broken, the water from the "great deep" burst free and flooded the sinking parts of the original continent.

If the entire earth was covered with water, then God had some floating above, which then broke and sank, how was it that the entire earth did not return to being covered in water? Your scenario makes no sense

[brunumb]

Please explain why do you think so?

1) The lack of water in the world to be able to cover the mountains

It is not possible because if you add up all the water that has been found in the crust, and all the water in the glaciers , oceans and atmosphere, it does not add up to the amount of water needed to flood the world as described.

It adds up, if you understand that the water has compressed ocean floors so that they are deeper now and it looks like mountains have risen. Mountains don't rise, it is the ocean floor that is compressed and sinks lower, which causes the illusion that there must have been more water than we now have.

Solids and liquids are extremely difficult to compress. There is no space between the molecules. Even if we allowed for the possibility of compression, it would have happened from the very beginning, not at some arbitrary time when the flood allegedly occurred.

[Goat]

Bible tells the water came also from the "fountains of the great deep". It was not all rain water and probably the rain water was a result from the water that came below the dry land.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep were burst open, and the sky's windows were opened. The rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:11-12

Yes, and if add up all that water that is in the crust, it won't be nearly enough. In fact, the water in the crust is not free flowing , but bound up into the structure of a rock they call 'ringwood'. .. which makes that scenario physically impossible. And, it's still not enough water to 'come up from the fountains of the deep, ' nor is there any evidence that 'fountains of the deep' exist or exists.

Making things up doesn't stop the physical impossibility of the global flood story. We haven't even touched on the fact that much water would compress the atmoshere that is left, and fry anybody in that dense conditions.

[brunumb]

I think it is ridiculous belief to think that mountains rise only because of the modern convection theory. It requires magical forces that doesn't really exist in the nature.

Unlike biblical magic, there are real forces at play on the crust of the earth. The convection currents within the molten mantle produce horizontal pressure on the crustal plates. When two plates are pushed towards each other the edges are forced upward where they collide. You can easily demonstrate this for yourself. Roll out two slabs of clay or dough and butt the straight edges against each other. Apply horizontal pressure on each slab pushing them towards each other. They will buckle and rise up at the interface. That's how mountains form.

[brunumb]

1. the original continent was broken. It means the water below the dry land escaped and flooded the earth. At the same time vast amount of water vapor was released, which caused the heavy rain. Flooding water obviously carried material away from the point where earth was broken, presumably one of these points is the Mid Atlantic ridge. This means sediment layers were formed to those places that the water went first.

Based on that scenario the earth would have remained covered with water. There was nowhere for it to go. Also, the sediments would not have been carried anywhere because the earth had to be covered with water and the water level was rising, not running away from anywhere.

2. After the continent was broken, it begun to sunk slowly. Collapsing parts of the continent that form the current continents compressed each others edges, which caused then orogenic mountains to the same locations where the water had carried sediments first.

Continents do not float on water. The crust of the earth is solid matter over a molten mantle underneath. Oceanic water is contained in depressions in the crust. No continent could ever break up and sink.

3. Eventually all dry land was below water and obviously all kind of water animals found the new shallow areas in the areas of mountain tops.

Huh? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

4. And after everything had settled, water level started to get lower, for example because water compressed all drowned stuff and because it was collected to the great glaciers that were the result of cooled climate and ice age that was result of the flood. And then some water animals on high mountain areas were captured to fresh sediments when the water level decreased.

Another impossibility. The bulk of the matter under water could not have been compressed. The fact is that there was nowhere for all that flood water to go. Water contained in glaciers would have to have taken a very, very long time to collect as snow and ice. That would not account for the amount needed to recede anyway. To create the biblical flood scenario it would take more than four times the total amount of water that is present on the earth. The whole thing is impossible. Whatever the point you are making about water animals I have no idea.

[TRANSPONDER]

... the 'hydroplate' theory may look good on a tabletop model of a flat earth with an ocean -filled reservoir with a rock lid over the top. But it doesn't work so well on a round earth where you have effectively a pacific ocean with a curved rock skin over the top. ...

Actually curved form of earth works better, because it is structurally stronger than straight slab, hence the old buildings used usually curved vaults, not straight slabs or beams.

...They were lifted up as mountains by tectonic plate movement. If they are the Flood - remains, how could they be the mountain supports for the hydroplate? The evidence is all against it. ...

I think it is ridiculous belief to think that mountains rise only because of the modern convection theory. It requires magical forces that doesn't really exist in the nature.

By what the Bible tells:
1. the original continent was broken. It means the water below the dry land escaped and flooded the earth. At the same time vast amount of water vapor was released, which caused the heavy rain. Flooding water obviously carried material away from the point where earth was broken, presumably one of these points is the Mid Atlantic ridge. This means sediment layers were formed to those places that the water went first.
2. After the continent was broken, it begun to sunk slowly. Collapsing parts of the continent that form the current continents compressed each others edges, which caused then orogenic mountains to the same locations where the water had carried sediments first.
3. Eventually all dry land was below water and obviously all kind of water animals found the new shallow areas in the areas of mountain tops.
4. And after everything had settled, water level started to get lower, for example because water compressed all drowned stuff and because it was collected to the great glaciers that were the result of cooled climate and ice age that was result of the flood. And then some water animals on high mountain areas were captured to fresh sediments when the water level decreased.

I think this is the best explanation for the marine fossils, orogenic mountains, oil and gas fields and modern continents.

Don't be absurd. A arch structure (for a dome) is nothing like (or structurally equivalent to) an ocean covered by rock roof, with the proportions of 110 width to 1 depth wrapped around a sphere. Where is the support? It is nothing like the proportional support of vaulted buildings. You have to say yourself that the water supported it. Sorry, when a roof falls in it does not float. No, the Hydroplate model works as a limited underground tank with a finger - crossed (1) wide roof supported on walls (mountain ranges) but it does not work on global scale needed to make the Flood work.

The continent was broken? What - Pangaea? It broke up and floated ( ) apart - before Noah had unloaded his animals into the various continents? One apologetics evasion refutes another. Water vapour? Where did that come from? A roof falling into a swimming - pool does not turn the water into steam. Are you making this stuff up yourself or quoting some Creationist source? You seriously suggest that the water compresses all the drowned stuff? Even if that happened in nature (I have never seen any example of it) it would not compress enough to lower the water below more than the mountain tops. And remember the 'sea shells' on the mountains are sea beds - originally the sea floor. The facts do not fit your theory

The rock roof broke up slowly floating on water long enough to cause mountains to appear? I thought the supports (like mid Atlantic ridge) were the mountains. But no, clearly not as they are below the flood water (present oceans) so new mountains have to be made from the continents (incorporating sea beds in the reservoir roof - explain how that works, please) and is presumably still afloat on the flood water (sorry tectonic plates float on ductile mantle) as the present continents.

Where did the water go?' because the mountains are already there (former supports). So "the mountains grew above the water making it appear to go down" does not work. The Hydroplate theory does not work, the Flood does not fit the evidence and the Genesis account is so impractical that any reasonable person must see it is Myth and a myth borrowed from Babylon, moreover.

Cold climate and Ice age from the flood? Just where did that airy claim come from? A moment ago the collapse of the continents had cause half of the water to turn into steam. And water animals would sink with the receding water and thus would end up on the sea floor not mountain tops.

You need to go back to the drawing board, smash the drawing - board and start again.

(1) remember the invisible Rule - it has to work without magic.

[1213]

...A arch structure (for a dome) is nothing like (or structurally equivalent to) an ocean covered by rock roof, with the proportions of 110 width to 1 depth wrapped around a sphere. Where is the support? It is nothing like the proportional support of vaulted buildings. You have to say yourself that the water supported it. Sorry, when a roof falls in it does not float. No, the Hydroplate model works as a limited underground tank with a finger - crossed (1) wide roof supported on walls (mountain ranges) but it does not work on global scale needed to make the Flood work.

The continent was broken? What - Pangaea? It broke up and floated ( ) apart - before Noah had unloaded his animals into the various continents? One apologetics evasion refutes another. Water vapour? Where did that come from? A roof falling into a swimming - pool does not turn the water into steam. Are you making this stuff up yourself or quoting some Creationist source? You seriously suggest that the water compresses all the drowned stuff? Even if that happened in nature (I have never seen any example of it) it would not compress enough to lower the water below more than the mountain tops. And remember the 'sea shells' on the mountains are sea beds - originally the sea floor. The facts do not fit your theory
...

I don't claim continents float. I claim that water can support great weight, if it can't escape, like in many hydraulic systems you could see.

And about water to steam, I recommend to study how geysers are possible.