Is God evil?

[Compassionist]

There are many verses in the Bible about God's predestination. https://www.openbible.info/topics/predestination Why would a good God predestine anyone to do evil? Surely, a good God would predestine all to do good? Does the existence of evil prove that God is evil? Surely, a good God would have made all living things to be autotrophs instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores, and some parasites? Here are some examples of evil events which caused or are causing suffering, deaths, and injustices:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
https://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter

[1213]

I never wanted to be alive. I wish I was never conceived into this horrific and unjust world full of suffering, injustice, and deaths. According to the Bible, all things (good and evil) are created by God. "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7. God could have made all living things all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful but he didn't. Beings who are all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful do not harm anyone or anything and are not harmed by anyone or anything. Can a tsunami or an earthquake or a volcanic eruption or a flood or a cyclone harm all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful beings? No. God had the opportunity to prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths by making all living things all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful but he failed to do it. I am not impressed by the Biblical God. Please see https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com Thank you.

When God created, everything was good. Then people rejected God, because they wanted to know evil and were expelled to this first death where we can learn what evil truly means. And I think all loving gives freedom. I think God can't be blamed for the bad things humans have chosen.

And about evil, it is basically nothing, it is the emptiness or darkness that is left when good is not around. God allowed people to reject Him and that way He made darkness, by allowing people to reject Him. So, I don't think God is bad or evil. I think He is the only good one, especially because He has also prepared way back to Him, for those who don't love darkness more than light.

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
John 3:19-21

As I have demonstrated in post number 8 on this thread, biological organisms don't have free will.

I have free will, so you are utterly wrong. But, if you don't have, I rather speak to the one who orders what you say.

[Compassionist]

I never wanted to be alive. I wish I was never conceived into this horrific and unjust world full of suffering, injustice, and deaths. According to the Bible, all things (good and evil) are created by God. "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7. God could have made all living things all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful but he didn't. Beings who are all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful do not harm anyone or anything and are not harmed by anyone or anything. Can a tsunami or an earthquake or a volcanic eruption or a flood or a cyclone harm all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful beings? No. God had the opportunity to prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths by making all living things all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful but he failed to do it. I am not impressed by the Biblical God. Please see https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com Thank you.

When God created, everything was good. Then people rejected God, because they wanted to know evil and were expelled to this first death where we can learn what evil truly means. And I think all loving gives freedom. I think God can't be blamed for the bad things humans have chosen.

And about evil, it is basically nothing, it is the emptiness or darkness that is left when good is not around. God allowed people to reject Him and that way He made darkness, by allowing people to reject Him. So, I don't think God is bad or evil. I think He is the only good one, especially because He has also prepared way back to Him, for those who don't love darkness more than light.

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
John 3:19-21

As I have demonstrated in post number 8 on this thread, biological organisms don't have free will.

I have free will, so you are utterly wrong. But, if you don't have, I rather speak to the one who orders what you say.

If God had made all living things autotrophs and all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful, Adam and Eve wouldn't have wanted to eat any fruit in the first place. Please prove that you have free will by going back in time and preventing all suffering, injustice, and deaths and by making all living things all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, and forever happy.

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #19]
How confident are you that God does not exist? What is the basis for your confidence level?

About 85%. And because I've never seen or perceived him. Now, the being described in the Bible as God might exist (I give that about a 15% chance) but I am about 99.99% confident that he is not God, because he seems malicious. He might not be as malicious as he seems but instead of leading me to think he was malicious, then at the end revealing he had tricked me and he was the kind one and I the malicious one all along, I think a kind and fair god would just... not do that.

As I said in post number 18 in this thread, I don't think we should be killing evil people. I think we should be imprisoning them to protect good people. I am against the death penalty. I am also against using lethal force to stop someone from murdering. We should use stun guns, not lethal bullets.

If we can I agree. The question is what to do when we can't do those things or what to do when evil people stand in the way of good outcomes. I don't really see the murderer as evil. It's the person insisting he has a right to defend with lethal force who is actually evil and may have to go, to prevent the good outcome which is everyone using only nonlethal force against the murderer.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #16

Putting a dog down because he or she is in pain relieves the pain but it also prevents any enjoyment in the future.

So you admit that in this "horrific and unjust world", as you call it, there is enjoyment.

I define good as what helps and evil as what harms........God is the ultimate evil because he failed to prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths despite being omniscient and omnipotent.

Not necessarily as simple as that. Here's my recollection of an old Chinese parable:

A man who owned a herd of horses went out to gather them into the corral and found that a wild horse had joined them, so he had gained a horse.

"What good fortune!" his neighbors said.

"We shall see," said the cautious man.

As the man's son was trying to break the wild horse in, the animal threw him and he broke his leg in the fall.

"What bad fortune!" the neighbors said.

"We shall see," said the boy's father.

A short time later, the army came through the village and drafted all the able-bodied young men to go off and fight. The young man's broken leg saved him from having to go off to war.......

.......and so on.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #16

Putting a dog down because he or she is in pain relieves the pain but it also prevents any enjoyment in the future.

So you admit that in this "horrific and unjust world", as you call it, there is enjoyment.

I define good as what helps and evil as what harms........God is the ultimate evil because he failed to prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths despite being omniscient and omnipotent.

Not necessarily as simple as that. Here's my recollection of an old Chinese parable:

A man who owned a herd of horses went out to gather them into the corral and found that a wild horse had joined them, so he had gained a horse.

"What good fortune!" his neighbors said.

"We shall see," said the cautious man.

As the man's son was trying to break the wild horse in, the animal threw him and he broke his leg in the fall.

"What bad fortune!" the neighbors said.

"We shall see," said the boy's father.

A short time later, the army came through the village and drafted all the able-bodied young men to go off and fight. The young man's broken leg saved him from having to go off to war.......

.......and so on.

The horror, the injustice, the suffering, and the deaths far outweigh the enjoyment in the world.

Some events are more good than evil, while other events are more evil than good. For example, getting a vaccine injected into the arm is painful but it protects one from getting ill by being infected by the germ causing the illness. So, this event is more good than evil. Also, what is good for one can be evil for another. For example, when a lion kills and consumes an antelope, the event is good for the lion as the meat keeps him alive but for the antelope the same event is evil because he suffers and dies.

Ultimately, all events from conception lead to death. Every nanosecond brings every organism closer to death. Christians are not exempt from suffering, injustice, and death.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #25

The horror, the injustice, the suffering, and the deaths far outweigh the enjoyment in the world.

That's the Extraordinary Knowledge fallacy, since you would have to live the life of every being to know any such thing.

Ultimately, all events from conception lead to death. Every nanosecond brings every organism closer to death.

And as you yourself have pointed out, death leads to new life----so death is never really triumphant. At the same time that rosebushes have thorns, thornbushes have roses.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #25

The horror, the injustice, the suffering, and the deaths far outweigh the enjoyment in the world.

That's the Extraordinary Knowledge fallacy, since you would have to live the life of every being to know any such thing.

Ultimately, all events from conception lead to death. Every nanosecond brings every organism closer to death.

And as you yourself have pointed out, death leads to new life----so death is never really triumphant. At the same time that rosebushes have thorns, thornbushes have roses.

I am talking about my experience of being me, about all the terrible experiences I have had, and how I am affected by the experiences of other living things. I don't need to directly feel the pain of all sentient organisms by being in their body, to be able to empathise with their pain. I have experienced many different kinds of pain directly. By extension, I can empathise with the pains of other organisms. Can't you?

For me, life is 99.9% negative and 0.1% positive. 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth are already extinct. The universe is heading towards heat death. Entropy rules. Even the remaining 0.1% species will also go extinct.

Life as I know it
Might is right,
Adapt or die.
The world works thus.
The evil prospers,
The innocent perishes.
Doomed we are,
To suffer,
And to die.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #27

I am talking about my experience of being me, about all the terrible experiences I have had, and how I am affected by the experiences of other living things. I don't need to directly feel the pain of all sentient organisms by being in their body, to be able to empathise with their pain. I have experienced many different kinds of pain directly. By extension, I can empathise with the pains of other organisms. Can't you?

For me, life is 99.9% negative and 0.1% positive. 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth are already extinct. The universe is heading towards heat death. Entropy rules. Even the remaining 0.1% species will also go extinct.

Life as I know it
Might is right,
Adapt or die.
The world works thus.
The evil prospers,
The innocent perishes.
Doomed we are,
To suffer,
And to die.

Do you believe that having terrible experiences determines one's outlook on life? If that's the case, why do so many who have terrible experiences go on to become some of the most inspiring individuals? Their terrible experiences give shape to their lives, but they decide what the shape will be.

And if it's true that energy can't be destroyed, then even cosmic heat death can lead to the spark of a new universe filled with life.

Here.....

https://greatergood.com/clicktogive/ggc/home

This morning I was moving some stuff around on the porch and discovered a small lizard who had gotten stuck out in the chilly night and could barely move. After I placed it in a sunny patch on my walk, it eventually warmed up enough to move off on its own. And warming up that little lizard warmed the day for me. Shifting that one tiny grain of sand on the beach gave a new design to the whole universe. Try it. As Harlan Ellison used to say, it's good for your soul.

[The Tanager]

How else can you interpret the verses about predestination? I interpret the verses to mean that God predestined everything because the interpretation makes sense.

There are a lot of verses there but, generally speaking, I think predestination is a corporate thing rather than an individual thing. He chooses “those in Christ” rather than which individuals will become “those in Christ”. Or, to put the same thing differently, it’s about God electing the method of salvation rather than the individuals that are saved or damned. God chose to save those who put their trust in Christ rather than those of a particular ethnicity or those whose good deeds meet some standard or any other kind of method.

Definition of free will: A will that is free from all constraints and is not determined by any variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. I have never met anyone with free will.

Definition of constrained will: A will that is constrained and is determined by variables e.g. genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Biological organisms have constrained will.

What do you think of my definitions? Do you have more accurate definitions? If so, what are they and what makes them more accurate?

Using these definitions, you’ve left a third view out. Perhaps limited free will or something like that as a title (I don’t think it really matters as long as the concepts are understood by those discussing it). If those are the 3 options, then no one believes in “free will”. We would have those who think the will is constrained (you and others) and those who think the will is not free from all constraints yet still not determined by those variables (me and others).

You claimed that free will is about having free choices within our human limitations - our choices are never free. I am convinced that we all act according to the interactions of our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. If I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of you or Albert Einstein or Marie Curie or Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler or anyone else, I would have made the same choices made by you or Albert Einstein or Marie Curie or Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler or anyone else.

What convinces you that this is true? Why do these things determine our choices rather than just inform or influence them towards various choices?

Since I did not exist before I was conceived, I could not have consented to come into existence. So, I should not have been brought into existence.

Why does not consenting to come into existence mean that you should not have been brought into existence? The alternative, of giving your consent before being brought into existence, is logically impossible.

How can I prevent my existence, please? I really want to prevent my existence as I hate being alive in this horrific and unjust world. I hate not being able to prevent all suffering, injustice, and deaths. I hate note being able to make all living things forever happy.

I agree with you on hating the evil that occurs. At first glance, I agree that it sounds like a morally perfect world with no evil would be better than a world that contains evil.

I don’t think that holds up, though, as one looks more in depth. A morally perfect world eliminates love as well. Love requires a free will. Determining a morally perfect world would negate free will. No free will, no love. So, in order to get love, we need to have (at least limited) free will. But this, logically, opens up the possibility of beings using that will against love, i.e., for evil.

You determine what is helpful and what is harmful by the effect it has on an organism. For example, rescuing someone who is drowning in the sea will save their life. So, the action is helpful. Murdering someone will end their life so the action is harmful. Helpful actions or inactions result in saving or improving lives. Harmful actions or inactions result in ending or worsening lives. For example, if I were to throw acid on someone's face, it would cause them facial disfiguration and pain. Therefore, this action would be classified as harmful.

But there are multiple effects on multiple organisms. What if you save the life of someone that will later kill two people? Was that action still helpful? By what standard do you judge that someone’s life is improving? Some people believe money will make you happier, some think it leads to more problems. Is giving them money helpful or harmful then? Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?

Ultimately, I’m trying to determine how you think we decide something is harmful or helpful because there are different views on that. Many times individuals will believe one thing but later see that what they thought was helpful in the moment really wasn’t. So, what is the standard to determine objective good and evil?

[brunumb]

Do you believe that having terrible experiences determines one's outlook on life? If that's the case, why do so many who have terrible experiences go on to become some of the most inspiring individuals? Their terrible experiences give shape to their lives, but they decide what the shape will be.

There are 8 billion people alive now, and billions more now gone. Just how many of those are you suggesting had terrible experiences and gone on to become some of the most inspiring individuals? Or is it just a small number that you may have encountered in books and other media? I wonder how many have had terrible experiences and simply been destroyed by them.