Noahism

[Kaizen CJM]

It is commonly believed of Judaism (Orthodox) that it is a separate religion which places Jews above Gentiles. This, however, is NOT the case. Judaim is a beautiful religion which accepts all of mankind. Jews under 613 commandments, and Gentiles under 7 main categories of commandments.

So what is Noahism?

To be a Noachide means that a Gentile has accepted his part, his role, in God's world. A Noachide is a Gentile who recognized that Judaism (Orthodox) is the one true religion. A Noachide accepts upon himself the commandments that God has given him. A Noachide accepts the Rambam's 13 principles of faith. A Noachide is a Gentile that has decided to follow Judaism. Many people do not know of us Noachides because of the fact that Judaism itself is quite a small religion. However, Judaism does have a place for all mankind, and for Gentiles. Yes, Jews are God's chosen people, but this in no way places them above the Gentiles. In Judaism, all men are equal, and all men have a place.

Any questions?

[cnorman18]

OK, thanks for the clarification. But I brought that up because the ‘party of Jesus’ actually wanted Gentiles to get circumcised and follow the full Mosaic laws, and after much controversy and heated arguments settled for (a revised version, it seems, of) Noachic law.

I guess one could look at it that way, but I still think the "new rules" for Gentiles becoming Christians were unrelated. Since those rules were already in place for Gentiles, the revision seems to have been directed at making a pared-down Mosaic law and not a beefed-up Noachide list. There's no reference to Noachide law in Acts or anywhere else in the NT.

The essential point is that the Jerusalem "conference," where the requirements for circumcision and kashrut were dropped, was the precise point at which Christianity broke away from Judaism and became an entirely separate, and primarily Gentile, religion. Up to that point, Christianity was a Jewish sect; after that, Christians could no longer be considered Jews and Jews could no longer be Christians. It has remained so ever since. One may be one or the other, but not both.

Peace to "Messianic Jews," but there is no such thing. They are Christians who play at being Jews. In order to be considered a member of any group, one must be acknowledged and accepted by other members of that group; and every branch of Judaism rejects the idea that one may believe in Jesus as God and Savior, be baptized, and still remain a Jew. Can't be done. Acceptance of Jesus is ipso facto a rejection of Judaism.

[carolineislands]

... every branch of Judaism rejects the idea that one may believe in Jesus as God and Savior, be baptized, and still remain a Jew. Can't be done. Acceptance of Jesus is ipso facto a rejection of Judaism.

There seems to be a growing understand between Jews and Christians. Do you expect this to continue and, if so, do you think there's a possibility Judaism dropping the ban on "Messianic Judaism?"

[Goat]

... every branch of Judaism rejects the idea that one may believe in Jesus as God and Savior, be baptized, and still remain a Jew. Can't be done. Acceptance of Jesus is ipso facto a rejection of Judaism.

There seems to be a growing understand between Jews and Christians. Do you expect this to continue and, if so, do you think there's a possibility Judaism dropping the ban on "Messianic Judaism?"

Around the second coming of Christ.... and not just claimed second comings.. but the real one.

Or, in the Jewish point of view, never.

Will the Mormons be acccpeted as 'true christians' by the more fundamentalist Southern Baptists?

[Cathar1950]

... every branch of Judaism rejects the idea that one may believe in Jesus as God and Savior, be baptized, and still remain a Jew. Can't be done. Acceptance of Jesus is ipso facto a rejection of Judaism.

There seems to be a growing understand between Jews and Christians. Do you expect this to continue and, if so, do you think there's a possibility Judaism dropping the ban on "Messianic Judaism?"

Around the second coming of Christ.... and not just claimed second comings.. but the real one.

Or, in the Jewish point of view, never.

Will the Mormons be acccpeted as 'true christians' by the more fundamentalist Southern Baptists?

I think it would be a better match.
I would hope we have moved beyond human saviors that are gods.
Heroes should always be welcome.
I think that Jewish sensibilities might see Jesus as a hero figure much like Judas the Galilean. If we take away the Pauline visions, Jesus doesn’t seem to have taught much that isn’t found in the prophets. In the prophets we can see a desire for social justice that went beyond the cults of their day before the Deuteronomy covenant of Josiah’s time that was projected into the sagas of Israel. Granted they might have been a little faulty on their prediction such as Jeremiah’s 70 years but dreams and hopes are still dreams and hopes. Justice flowing like water is still a great ideal. Caring for the widow, orphan and the poor are much better then some vain desire to live forever while others perish.
Sharing and a sympathetic relationship wit everything is better then shedding blood to make up for our failures.

[cnorman18]

... every branch of Judaism rejects the idea that one may believe in Jesus as God and Savior, be baptized, and still remain a Jew. Can't be done. Acceptance of Jesus is ipso facto a rejection of Judaism.

There seems to be a growing understand between Jews and Christians. Do you expect this to continue and, if so, do you think there's a possibility Judaism dropping the ban on "Messianic Judaism?"

There is indeed a healthier relationship between Christians and Jews today than at any time in our shared history. In my opinion, though, that has come more from our mutual acceptance of our differences and acknowledgment of our shared ethics, values and goals (see Cathar's post above) than from anything like an evolution of our beliefs into becoming more similar.

So, in a word, no. "Messianic Jews" have the right to believe whatever they choose, and we have no comment on those beliefs, just as we have no comment on the beliefs of other Christians (as opposed to some past and present practices, e.g., the evangelization of Jews); but every Jew I know regards their presenting themselves as Jews, rather than as Christians, to be a falsehood. Further, their presenting themselves as "completed" or "perfected" Jews, with the clear implication that actual Jews are therefore "incomplete" or "imperfect" in comparison, we regard as an insult.

Consider how most Christians would feel about an organization that presented itself as a "Christian church" that taught that Jesus was a fine fellow, but denied that he was God Incarnate, was the son of God, had the power to save from sin, was the necessary sacrifice for sin, or rose from the dead. I suspect that most Christians would regard that as false advertising, so to speak.

When a Jew accepts the Christian beliefs about Jesus, such as the ones above, he has abandoned the unique grammar of the Jews' understanding of and relationship with God for something entirely and qualitatively different. Ergo, he is no longer a Jew. I don't see that changing anytime soon, or, frankly, ever.

[cnorman18]

I think that Jewish sensibilities might see Jesus as a hero figure much like Judas the Galilean.

No offense intended, but--fat chance.

Jesus's claims to divinity, if in fact he even made them, would have been a huge issue by themselves; but even absent those, he rather forcefully taught the abandonment of the Oral Torah and a pretty radical break with any form of normative Judaism of his day. Those factors militate pretty strongly against his ever being regarded as anything like a hero. "Great teacher" is about as far as most Jews are willing to go.

If we take away the Pauline visions, Jesus doesn’t seem to have taught much that isn’t found in the prophets.

As far as social justice, etc., is concerned, he didn't; but that's hardly the point. There is more to Judaism (and Christianity, for the matter of that) than ethics, whether personal or public.

In the prophets we can see a desire for social justice that went beyond the cults of their day before the Deuteronomy covenant of Josiah’s time that was projected into the sagas of Israel.

A lot of assumptions lurk there, but okay.

Granted they might have been a little faulty on their prediction such as Jeremiah’s 70 years but dreams and hopes are still dreams and hopes. Justice flowing like water is still a great ideal. Caring for the widow, orphan and the poor are much better then some vain desire to live forever while others perish.

All of the former are concerns of Judaism, and always have been. The last, of course, is not.

Sharing and a sympathetic relationship wit everything is better then shedding blood to make up for our failures.

Quite true, and Jews have always affirmed the right of others to believe as they wish without interference from us. Where we have gotten into trouble in the past was in our wish to be similarly left alone.

We have never engaged in sectarian religious wars as belligerents, only as victims; the overwhelming majority of innocent blood spilled in such conflicts has been Jewish blood. As someone once said, you can look it up.

[Cathar1950]

I think that Jewish sensibilities might see Jesus as a hero figure much like Judas the Galilean.

No offense intended, but--fat chance.

Jesus's claims to divinity, if in fact he even made them, would have been a huge issue by themselves; but even absent those, he rather forcefully taught the abandonment of the Oral Torah and a pretty radical break with any form of normative Judaism of his day. Those factors militate pretty strongly against his ever being regarded as anything like a hero. "Great teacher" is about as far as most Jews are willing to go.

If he existed or was Judas the Galilean I hardly think they would have claimed to be God or divine. Paul taught the abandonment of the Torah and there is little indication Jesus taught such things, if his brother James was anything like him.
A number of scholars have shown a very Jewish Jesus and a questionable Paul.
The NT is largely the work of Paul and gentiles after the war with the Romans.
The so-called followers of Jesus vanished as did any Jewish voice or leadership.
The Ebonite tradition rejected Paul and the divinity of Jesus and the sacrificial death for sin. Jesus was simple faithful and was adopted as his son much as a king or priest.
There are hints that the Davidic kings were seen as divine much as other kings of the areas. The Moabites made the same claims as Judea about their god and their election or favoritism.
Some have even suggested that Yahweh was a dying and rising god where "living god" means one returned. Later Yahweh becomes the absent god.
There are influences from Sumer, Babylon, Persia, Egypt, Hittite, Canaanite and Assyria. Like the Christians Josiah and Ezra projected their ideal upon the writings and stories.
The Christians were not the first to rework or reinvent the material or the first to borrow. They share a long history of reinvention from Genesis to the prophets.
One Original Judaism is like one Original Christianity, a myth.

[carolineislands]

I am encouraged by the improvement in relations between Jews and Christians. I think calling Messianic Jews "completed" or "perfected" is quite insulting but I do think the Christians are getting a little better about thinking outside their own box. Jews have always been better than most at accepting other's right to believe as they choose. It might be wishful thinking, but I think Christians are moving in that direction as well. Best of all, I am thrilled that Christians and Jews are starting to appreciate their shared beliefs and Christians are starting to respect Judaism as it should be respected. Maybe this improved relationship is due to the fact that they now are realizing they have a common enemy, especially since 9/11.

I think of the Abrahamic religions as children of one father; one born by his wife, one adopted, and one - how shall we say it - born out of wedlock...

The child born of the father's wife has a certain confidence because of the legitimacy of his birth and standing in the family. The second has a gratitude for being given a heritage he didn't deserve. And the third is just pissed off and always will be.

[cnorman18]

I am encouraged by the improvement in relations between Jews and Christians. I think calling Messianic Jews "completed" or "perfected" is quite insulting but I do think the Christians are getting a little better about thinking outside their own box.

Jews have always been better than most at accepting other's right to believe as they choose. It might be wishful thinking, but I think Christians are moving in that direction as well. Best of all, I am thrilled that Christians and Jews are starting to appreciate their shared beliefs and Christians are starting to respect Judaism as it should be respected. Maybe this improved relationship is due to the fact that they now are realizing they have a common enemy, especially since 9/11.

True; and oddly, it seems to be the more conservative, even fundamentalist, Christians that are doing so. As Baptists and Pentecostals are supporting Israel with money, tourism, and speaking on its behalf, the liberal Presbyterians are voting to boycott companies that do business with Israel. We Jews know that much of this support from the Christian right is connected to beliefs about the End Times and the Second Coming and all that, but what of it? We need all the help we can get.

It's peculiar that the American left in general has turned on Israel, sometimes viciously so, when Israel is primarily Socialist in nature.

Weird. The usual Jewish response to such oddities is a shrug and a muttered, "Goyim."

(The word is not pejorative, BTW.)

I think of the Abrahamic religions as children of one father; one born by his wife, one adopted, and one - how shall we say it - born out of wedlock...

The child born of the father's wife has a certain confidence because of the legitimacy of his birth and standing in the family. The second has a gratitude for being given a heritage he didn't deserve. And the third is just pissed off and always will be.

As the Bible, in fact, said he would be.

That remark inspired a huge digression, which I have deleted and shall post in a separate thread. Something about commentaries; I haven't titled it yet.

Thanks for your remarks. Cogent and interesting as always.

[carolineislands]

"wild asses among men" if I remember right...

Liberal academia has definitely turned on Israel. This is something that has been bothering me lately. Perhaps it should be in another thread. But just to touch on it here, I am recently out of academia (I'm not young, I just have a habit of going back to school). And I can say that liberal thinking has decided that Israel is some sort of naziesques great oppressor, and is at the root of all the terrorist attacks round the world. Its ridiculous! I look at tiny little Israel - a sliver of land sitting smack dab in the middle of a huge mass of nations full of people who want nothing more in life than to personally witness (better yet have a hand in) her demise - and I wonder how on EARTH this nation with a population about the size of New York, could possibly be tyrannizing the entire Middle East. All I can say is that the Jews must be even more industrious than I had even thought to take a minuscule sliver of barren worthless desert and turned it into one of the most beautiful, progressive nations in the world in less than 60 years, come up with some of the world's most innovative scientific and technological advances, literally made the desert bloom AND on top of all THAT - still had time to tyrannize all those nations, every one of which is ten or more times larger than her with populations thousands of times bigger! Wow!

But its too late to discuss this now so I will just look for your thread.