The fundimental nature of good.

[McCulloch]

Is something good because God says that it is good or is something good independent of God?

I am fairly new to this forum, so please forgive me if this topic has already been discussed. Please respond with a link if this is the case.

Here is the fundamental paradox.
If good is good because God says so, then, we are living with an arbitrary God. We can have no basis to determine if something is good other than some sort of revelation from God (written, natural, spiritual or otherwise). Genocide is good when God had commanded it (read Joshua) but bad in Rwanda.

On the other hand, if good is good independent of God then God is not the ultimate source. Something morally higher than God exists.

[harvey1]

Is something good because God says that it is good or is something good independent of God?

In my view, God is a property of ultimate reality. So, if we want to examine ultimate reality, then God (Mind) is one of it's basic properties. Goodness is another property of ultimate reality. And, truth is another property. Therefore, God=Goodness=Truth.

Now, about those paradoxes...

If good is good because God says so, then, we are living with an arbitrary God...

Since goodness is a property of ultimate reality (as well as mind), these properties "just are" and there's no decision to make them those properties.

if good is good independent of God then God is not the ultimate source. Something morally higher than God exists

Well, the ultimate source is ultimate reality, and that source has properties of Goodness, Truthfulness, and Mindfulness. So, there's nothing higher than Mindfulness. In fact, my inclination is to think that Mindfulness is Goodness, and Goodness is Mindfulness, along with Truthfulness being Goodness, Truthfulness being Mindfulness (you can do all the permutations).

[McCulloch]

This explanation does not help much.
Firstly, I was referring to the Christian God not some pantheistic or deist cosmic ultimate reality. The Christian God, as I understand the concept, is a spirit with a will (or is it three wills, the trinitarian dogma is so confusing). So simply renaming "God" into "ultimate reality" just moves the paradox to a further level.
If good is good because the ultimate reality says so, then, we are living with an arbitrary ultimate reality. If good is good independent of the ultimate reality then the ultimate reality is not the ultimate source. Something morally higher than the ultimate reality exists. Furthermore, the Christians believe that the ultimate reality has a son who became human and that the ultimate reality suffered and died for the sins of the world. And that the ultimate reality personally led an ancient tribe out of Egypt and directed them in the genocide of their enemies. Was the genocide of their enemies a good thing because the ultimate reality said so or is there something intrinsically, morally right in the genocide itself?

[harvey1]

This explanation does not help much.
Firstly, I was referring to the Christian God not some pantheistic or deist cosmic ultimate reality. The Christian God, as I understand the concept, is a spirit with a will (or is it three wills, the trinitarian dogma is so confusing). So simply renaming "God" into "ultimate reality" just moves the paradox to a further level.

There's no contradiction with the Christian view of God. I think if you asked most Christians they would say that God is the ultimate reality.

If good is good because the ultimate reality says so, then, we are living with an arbitrary ultimate reality.

It's not arbitrary since the only kind of ultimate reality that can exist is one that is consistent. Anything that is consistent is ultimate reality, and this consistent ultimate reality is good since it is consistent and ultimately conforms to that which we call good.

If good is good independent of the ultimate reality then the ultimate reality is not the ultimate source. Something morally higher than the ultimate reality exists.

No, goodness is a property of ultimate reality (i.e., because ultimate reality is consistent it has a goodness property).

Furthermore, the Christians believe that the ultimate reality has a son who became human and that the ultimate reality suffered and died for the sins of the world. And that the ultimate reality personally led an ancient tribe out of Egypt and directed them in the genocide of their enemies. Was the genocide of their enemies a good thing because the ultimate reality said so or is there something intrinsically, morally right in the genocide itself?

Well, in my view it's just a brute fact that things that are consistent and good (in an ultimate sense) do not necessarily forbid things that can bring forth evils. For example, mathematics has been shown by people such as Chaitin can introduce randomness. If mathematics describes the makings of the mind of ultimate reality, then ultimate reality brings forth randomness. As long as this doesn't impede the consistency of ultimate reality, then the randomness that comes from that might even play havoc with the lower realities (namely, our universe). (Btw, I'm not a fundamentalist, so let's not start quoting every text from scriptures...)

Also, if you want to discuss how an all-good, all-powerful God can exist with evil, then I encourage you to join the debate at this thread (http://www.debatingchristianity.com/for ... php?t=1230).

[Bro Dave]

The word good is a human invention, used to describe that which we humans perceive to be beneficial. We have used the word God as a base word in that derivation, because our finite understanding of God, is limited to his source relationship with us. That is on the physical level; On the higher spiritual level, we experience beauty and goodness around us, and see them as expressions of the Love God shares with us. So, for us, the source of meaning and value in our lives is Love, and that source of Good is God.

Bro Dave

[McCulloch]

The word good is a human invention, used to describe that which we humans perceive to be beneficial. We have used the word God as a base word in that derivation, because our finite understanding of God, is limited to his source relationship with us. That is on the physical level; On the higher spiritual level, we experience beauty and goodness around us, and see them as expressions of the Love God shares with us. So, for us, the source of meaning and value in our lives is Love, and that source of Good is God.

Bro Dave

As a humanist and an atheist, I have to agree with you that the word good is a human invention. But my understanding of Christian mythology is that God is the source of the knowledge of good and evil. The rest of your post seems not to be discussing the personal God (Father or Son) described in the Christian Scriptures.

[McCulloch]

In my view, God is a property of ultimate reality. So, if we want to examine ultimate reality, then God (Mind) is one of it's basic properties. Goodness is another property of ultimate reality. And, truth is another property. Therefore, God=Goodness=Truth.

It's not arbitrary since the only kind of ultimate reality that can exist is one that is consistent. Anything that is consistent is ultimate reality, and this consistent ultimate reality is good since it is consistent and ultimately conforms to that which we call good.

Therefore, anything that is consistent is God? Math and Logic are closer to God than Theology since they are demonstratably more consistent.

[Bro Dave]

The word good is a human invention, used to describe that which we humans perceive to be beneficial. We have used the word God as a base word in that derivation, because our finite understanding of God, is limited to his source relationship with us. That is on the physical level; On the higher spiritual level, we experience beauty and goodness around us, and see them as expressions of the Love God shares with us. So, for us, the source of meaning and value in our lives is Love, and that source of Good is God.

Bro Dave

As a humanist and an atheist, I have to agree with you that the word good is a human invention. But my understanding of Christian mythology is that God is the source of the knowledge of good and evil. The rest of your post seems not to be discussing the personal God (Father or Son) described in the Christian Scriptures.

Christian Scriptures are not the source for my statement, but even Christians have a larger view of God than “the source of the knowledge of good and evil”. I see God in my limited way, as my Father; but that is the personal aspect of God. There is infinitely more; His is First Source and Center, First Cause and the Ultimate sustainer of absolutely everything, including this time and space we experience.

Bro Dave

[The Happy Humanist]

First of all, welcome fellow humanist!

Is something good because God says that it is good or is something good independent of God?

I've dealt with this elsewhere, but not as succinctly as you. I take the position that relying totally on God for moral direction requires complete abdication of our own moral sense. But if we have no moral sense, then we have no basis on which to judge whether or not God is worthy of our devotion.

I'm sure you've heard Christians say with a shocked expression, "You can't judge God!" But I maintain that they do so every day - they judge him to be good, or else they wouldn't devote themselves to him. But if that judgement is 100% God-programmed, then it can't be trusted. God might actually be a Dark Lord of the Sith, or Q, or Squire Trelayne, or a madman from another universe leading us down the primrose path to our own destruction, and we would never know it.

I have yet to receive a cogent solution to this seeming paradox - yet another of many.

[McCulloch]

In my view, God is a property of ultimate reality. So, if we want to examine ultimate reality, then God (Mind) is one of it's basic properties. Goodness is another property of ultimate reality. And, truth is another property. Therefore, God=Goodness=Truth.

if good is good independent of God then God is not the ultimate source. Something morally higher than God exists

I owe you an apology, I misread your post. I had thought that you said that God is the ultimate reality. But you really said that God is a property of the ultimate reality. I still don't have a clue as to what that means.

My understanding of the Christian concept of God is that He (or They if you are trinitarian), is the creator of all that has been created and that God is etermal and not created. You seem agree with the statement that there is some ultimate reality beyond or above God.