If God wants to destroy evil...

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:17 pm

God created everything that has been, is, and is going to be in existence. He created the Earth and the Heavens. He created the Lake of Fire in which he casts sinners. He created Good, and He created evil. Does not the old adage says "I have created you, and so can I destroy you"?

If God wanted to, couldn't He, in theory, destroy evil with no need for the battle of the apocalypse?

asajoseph · Post by **asajoseph** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:09 pm

Hmmm... I think the Bible is fairly clear that God WILL destroy evil in the future.

Is your question 'why doesn't God destroy evil now?' Or perhaps, 'why did God create a world in which evil was allowed to exist?'?

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:16 pm

Well, you have to figure that God had to create "evil" as a contrast to His "good".

So I suppose my question would be: If God is so against evil, and He is infinitely and all that, why not vanquish evil sooner as opposed to later?

asajoseph · Post by **asajoseph** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:25 pm

Hmmmm.... interesting.

Well, I guess this question just boils down to the old 'what is the meaning of life?' question.

I'll explain - You're asking (essentially), 'why doesn't God put a stop to evil?'. You might also reasonably ask, 'why did God allow evil to exist in the first place?'. The answer to both questions, if you ask me, is that allowing evil to exist somehow is necessary to completing God's purpose for humanity, integral to the reason for humans existing at all. So the question becomes, 'What is God's purpose such that it required him to allow the existence of evil?', or, more simply put, 'What is the meaning of life?'.

Are you with me so far?

Asa

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:36 pm

Yes, I understand your thought process. I, too, tend to follow it through as such. However, we have seen that God is (or at least was) more of an interventionalist that a "present them with Good and Evil and see which they choose". If God's plan for humanity is to save the Good and banish the Evil why not just do that and get it over with?

[edit]however, I suppose that one also boils down to "what is the meaning of life", perhaps not such a fair question. Tokens to you

asajoseph · Post by **asajoseph** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:53 pm

Good question.

Just before we go any further, I ought to let you know that I'm not a calvinist - so there may be Christians that disagree with me on this from here on in.

I'm not entirely sure about defining God's plan so early on though. I mean, that seems to be part of God's plan, however I don't yet believe that we've come to a point where we can say that 'God's plan was to create humanity, so that he could save some of it (those humans that perfectly reflected God's nature*) and destroy the rest.' In fact, why not simply create a race of humans that ALREADY reflect perfectly God's nature and send them straight to heaven, without going through the redemptive sacrifice, and all the fuss of creation?

The answer for me is bound up with free-will. [Commence speculation] God, being a free agent for some reason wants other 'free agents' to exist, and thus creates humans. Humans, being in the image of God inherit his 'free will' but not his perfect nature (i.e. do not represent God's nature perfectly, which is termed 'sin'). Therefore, because the imperfect reflection of God's nature ('sinfulness') is inherent in man, but God still wants to retain (at least some of) the free agents, some kind of redemption is required, and this is where Christ comes in.

Therefore, let's consider the following issues.

1) - Is evil (as I believe) a necessary result of creating other free agents?
2) - Are humans REALLY free agents?
3) - This still doesn't answer the question of why God might desire the existence of other free agents (although if I were being INCREDIBLY speculative, I might suggest that the social element existent in humans is a reflection of the social element inherent in God. VERY speculative mind)

[End Speculation]

This is actually a subject I have been pondering a lot recently, and it's something I've come to realise I will not recieve a perfect answer to until I die. I'm very open to changing my views on this, so I'd be interested to read any comments, particularly of the calvinist ilk on these views.

Many thanks,

Asa

* Of course, the whole point of Jesus is that NO humans reflect God's nature, and thus require the atonement - thus those that accept the sacrifice of Christ are those that ultimately reflect God's nature

asajoseph · Post by **asajoseph** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:58 pm

Hmmm... after all that I realised that I never really answered your question, just provided you with a train of my own speculation!

As you recognise, I believe that putting evil to an end will come at a time when God's purpose for life has been completed - perhaps (in context of the post above) when sufficient people have been saved? But to speculate as to why God is continuing life (and the intrinsic existence of evil) is to speculate on what exactly the meaning of life is (as you recognise). So I've provided you with a little (I suspect controversial!) speculation.

Asa

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:04 pm

That was a very good explanation. And I, as you, are curious as to the whole song and dance God goes through just so He can have some buddies in Heaven when He can simply create them perfectly already. And, for that matter, why didn't he create the angels (specifically Lucifer) unable to commit sin; or, rather, able, but not willing - as He is already?

To somewhat answer my own question: the variety of human experiences probably brings some variety in Heaven, which He could not have "artificially" (for lack of a better term) created.

*Notices the "Atheist" usergroup next to his name.* That is, assuming God exists

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:07 pm

I guess this wasn't as much of a debate as I had figured

asajoseph · Post by **asajoseph** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:12 pm

That was a very good explanation. And I, as you, are curious as to the whole song and dance God goes through just so He can have some buddies in Heaven when He can simply create them perfectly already. And, for that matter, why didn't he create the angels (specifically Lucifer) unable to commit sin; or, rather, able, but not willing - as He is already?

Great question. I think we have to look at exactly what the distinction is between man and angel here.

For the record, I'm currently following a discussion on another apologetics site about whether or not Satan's fall from heaven is Biblical (both sides of the discussion being taken by Christians) - I believe that the answer to this question, should you ever find one (!), would be especially relevant here.

Otherwise, I'll admit that my theology on angels is not particularly developed, so I'll bow out of any discussion that involves them for the moment.

To somewhat answer my own question: the variety of human experiences probably brings some variety in Heaven, which He could not have "artificially" (for lack of a better term) created.

Another great point. I certainly believe that humans arriving in heaven keep a certain amount of their 'character'. I certainly don't believe in some group of homogonously 'good' spirits! Again, I'm not entirely sure that all Christians would agree with me here, but these are my views.

*Notices the "Atheist" usergroup next to his name.* That is, assuming God exists

Lol... I always appreciate someone who can hypothesize about what the world would be like if their worldview were wrong. I do my best to do the same.

Asa