The fundimental nature of good.

[McCulloch]

Is something good because God says that it is good or is something good independent of God?

I am fairly new to this forum, so please forgive me if this topic has already been discussed. Please respond with a link if this is the case.

Here is the fundamental paradox.
If good is good because God says so, then, we are living with an arbitrary God. We can have no basis to determine if something is good other than some sort of revelation from God (written, natural, spiritual or otherwise). Genocide is good when God had commanded it (read Joshua) but bad in Rwanda.

On the other hand, if good is good independent of God then God is not the ultimate source. Something morally higher than God exists.

[AlAyeti]

"Enlightenment."

What is its origin?

Since we can observe base actions in its proponents and adherents since and by "The Enlightened" what is the improvement in the condition of being "Enlightened." Why does enlightened "progress" always lead to sexual promiscuity and degeneracy? It always is leading back to Sodom.

Certainly my observation that death and misery have followed the "enlightened thinkers" throughout its origination is empirical. Nietzsche spawned the Nazi's without doubt. Freud is the father of the most twisted human conditions ever promulgated on innocent people. Even Gore Vidal - an obvious antagonist to my positions - would agree with me there.

Look at the signers of the Humanist Manifesto One or Two (?)! Weapons of Mass destruction come from the Noble Peace prizers in such hypocritical numbers. In fact Noble was the inventor of TNT! Where did he get his feelings of remorse?

Nonsense is thinking that an atheist can have a moral position on anything but self-centered wants.

That Stalin and Lenin have sponsered atheist horror on the world in numbers that stagger the conscience is not debatable. China is still doing it and you don't see many people sneaking INTO Cuba on boats. Only deniable from only one belief system. The "Godless" countries have a rate of child sex slavery that can only be neglected by "freethinkers."

The world's laws are to curb atheist crimes every bit as much as any other form of immorality. Yes, yes, put a muzzle on totalitarian religions but put a spotlight on atheism and its natural outcomes, and never turn it off.

[McCulloch]

Certainly my observation that death and misery have followed the "enlightened thinkers" throughout its origination is empirical. Nietzsche spawned the Nazi's without doubt.

Hitler was supported by German churches and he never renounced the christian faith.

Freud is the father of the most twisted human conditions ever promulgated on innocent people.

I won't defend Freud.

Look at the signers of the Humanist Manifesto One or Two (?)!

I must have missed something. Which signers of the Humanist Manifestos were sociopathic criminals? What crimes against humanity did they commit? Specifics please.

Weapons of Mass destruction come from the Noble Peace prizers in such hypocritical numbers. In fact Noble was the inventor of TNT!

I know you get excited about this stuff, but please connect the dots. Other than Alfred Nobel (who was not awarded a Nobel prize) please answer which Nobel Peace prize winners contributed which weapons of mass destruction. Then show how that is relevant to the current debate. We are not all as bright as you and need a bit of hand holding to follow the thread of your argument.

Nonsense is thinking that an atheist can have a moral position on anything but self-centered wants.

I happen to disagree with this statement. Perhaps we should post it as a subject for a separate debate.

That Stalin and Lenin have sponsered atheist horror on the world in numbers that stagger the conscience is not debatable. China is still doing it and you don't see many people sneaking INTO Cuba on boats.

I hope that you are not making the following logical error. All communists are atheist, therefore all atheists are communist. There are many atheists and freethinkers active in your country who are quite opposed to communism.

The "Godless" countries have a rate of child sex slavery that can only be neglected by "freethinkers."

By "Godless" you mean communist? What is the rate of child sex slavery in increasingly godless Europe? Has child sex slavery been eliminated in Catholic Philippines?

The world's laws are to curb atheist crimes every bit as much as any other form of immorality. Yes, yes, put a muzzle on totalitarian religions but put a spotlight on atheism and its natural outcomes, and never turn it off.

Which crimes are particularly atheist? I am not aware of any crime which are committed only by atheists. Certainly the sexual deviations you allude to have been committed by religionists.

[The Happy Humanist]

Certainly my observation that death and misery have followed the "enlightened thinkers" throughout its origination is empirical. Nietzsche spawned the Nazi's without doubt.

Hitler was supported by German churches and he never renounced the christian faith.

Freud is the father of the most twisted human conditions ever promulgated on innocent people.

I won't defend Freud.

Look at the signers of the Humanist Manifesto One or Two (?)!

I must have missed something. Which signers of the Humanist Manifestos were sociopathic criminals? What crimes against humanity did they commit? Specifics please.

Weapons of Mass destruction come from the Noble Peace prizers in such hypocritical numbers. In fact Noble was the inventor of TNT!

I know you get excited about this stuff, but please connect the dots. Other than Alfred Nobel (who was not awarded a Nobel prize) please answer which Nobel Peace prize winners contributed which weapons of mass destruction. Then show how that is relevant to the current debate. We are not all as bright as you and need a bit of hand holding to follow the thread of your argument.

Nonsense is thinking that an atheist can have a moral position on anything but self-centered wants.

I happen to disagree with this statement. Perhaps we should post it as a subject for a separate debate.

That Stalin and Lenin have sponsered atheist horror on the world in numbers that stagger the conscience is not debatable. China is still doing it and you don't see many people sneaking INTO Cuba on boats.

I hope that you are not making the following logical error. All communists are atheist, therefore all atheists are communist. There are many atheists and freethinkers active in your country who are quite opposed to communism.

The "Godless" countries have a rate of child sex slavery that can only be neglected by "freethinkers."

By "Godless" you mean communist? What is the rate of child sex slavery in increasingly godless Europe? Has child sex slavery been eliminated in Catholic Philippines?

The world's laws are to curb atheist crimes every bit as much as any other form of immorality. Yes, yes, put a muzzle on totalitarian religions but put a spotlight on atheism and its natural outcomes, and never turn it off.

Which crimes are particularly atheist? I am not aware of any crime which are committed only by atheists. Certainly the sexual deviations you allude to have been committed by religionists.

Thanks for picking up where I left off, McC. My participation in this forum is going to be very limited from hereon, due to time considerations, and I'm glad to see someone of like mind taking up the cudgel.

All: It's been a refreshing diversion, but I need to take a leave of absence from this debate. I hope you all get it worked out someday. Ta-ta!

[Dilettante]

AlAyeti wrote:

Why are we following the beliefs of traitors and rebels? One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, etc, etc, etc.

Where did you get that idea? There may be a few disputed cases, but in general a terrorist is one who targets civilians rather than enemy soldiers in an attempt to destabilize a society or a government. Do the American Founding Fathers fit that definition? I doubt it.

Why claim to be promoting "Progress" while using men who had wooden teeth to lead us into that "progress?"

Washington did not have wooden teeth, that's a myth.

And if America is anything, it is licentious from coast to coast. In fact it is our way.

America is licentious? That strikes me as a curious role reversal. Most people would say Europe is licentious while America is puritanical. Of course to Muslim fundamentalist Sayyid Qutb, American Christians were already plenty licentious in the 1950s, since they sat side by side with women and even danced with them at church dances.

And as history is being repeated right before our eyes with a little Marxism thrown in for good measure, civil war is not far over the horizon.

Marxism in the US? Where?

Nature and natures God will usher in progress. It's only natural.

Nature is just an abstraction, and, as such, it cannot usher in anything.

[FreddieFreeloader]

The "Godless" countries have a rate of child sex slavery that can only be neglected by "freethinkers."

Child sex slavery cannot be neglected by anyone, and stating that "freethinkers" do so, is an unsupportable statement if I ever saw one.

Why does a number of "Godless" western european countries have lower murder rates, fewer prostitutes, fewer drug offences than say the believing eastern european countries, south african countries or the US? Because crime is a function of poverty, not belief.

That Stalin and Lenin have sponsered atheist horror on the world in numbers that stagger the conscience is not debatable. China is still doing it and you don't see many people sneaking INTO Cuba on boats. Only deniable from only one belief system.

How about this piece of reasoning?

AlAyeti can't fly.
A rock can't fly.
Therefore AlAeyti is a rock.

I must admit that I have never actually met AlAyeti, so I cannot "empirically" verify that he actually is a rock, but I feel like making ridiculous claims today.