Did paul teach particular redemption in his gospel ?

[beloved57]

[Salt Agent]

Greetings,

To answer the question in your opening Post, NO, Paul did not teach Particular Redemption - Limited Atonement.
I respect your right to believe anything you want, but the question is at best nebulous, so we could expect the answers to be as well.

I think you mean/ a better way to post the question would be...
"Did the apostle Paul explicitly teach **Limited Atonement in his epistles?" Paul was not a writer of the Gospels.

Many Christians who have a view on this, don't even know the term Particular Redemption, or that what it means, or that it is the same thing as Limited Atonement in a different wrapper.
I respect and recognize that it may be interesting to analyze particular themes of Paul, and that such a narrow focus can be valid, and have merit.

I will make this brief and not hijack your post.

Having said that, this post itself is really a repackaging of the Calvinism vs Arminianism issue where this is addressed.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=3771

When discussing doctrine, we need to examine the whole counsel of Scripture, and not build theology on the writings of one person to a specific church in a specific time and culture. A better post would be "Does the New Testament explicitly teach Limited Atonement?"

Grace and Peace.

Salt Agent

[beloved57]

Greetings,

To answer the question in your opening Post, NO, Paul did not teach Particular Redemption - Limited Atonement.
I respect your right to believe anything you want, but the question is at best nebulous, so we could expect the answers to be as well.

I think you mean/ a better way to post the question would be...
"Did the apostle Paul explicitly teach **Limited Atonement in his epistles?" Paul was not a writer of the Gospels.

Many Christians who have a view on this, don't even know the term Particular Redemption, or that what it means, or that it is the same thing as Limited Atonement in a different wrapper.
I respect and recognize that it may be interesting to analyze particular themes of Paul, and that such a narrow focus can be valid, and have merit.

I will make this brief and not hijack your post.

Having said that, this post itself is really a repackaging of the Calvinism vs Arminianism issue where this is addressed.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=3771

When discussing doctrine, we need to examine the whole counsel of Scripture, and not build theology on the writings of one person to a specific church in a specific time and culture. A better post would be "Does the New Testament explicitly teach Limited Atonement?"

Grace and Peace.

Salt Agent

sure paul taugt particular redemption in the gospel 1 cor 15 : 3,4 the christ died for our sins..

also the epistles are the same gospel truthes that paul or other faithful men had taught..the truthes are nothing new to the hearers but maybe expanded upon and rehearsed..

Also Jesus taught particular redemption in jn 10:

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Notice he does not say I lay my life down foe the whole world of people..

[Salt Agent]

Dear Beloved,

As i mentioned earlier, there is nothing new here. My suspicion is that you may think people will read this post, but not the other one, where these issues are soundly refuted with scripture. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=3771

It really is very very simple. Just make a list side by side of all the verses that clearly and explicitly state that Jesus' death was only for some and not for others...
That Christ only tasted death for the elect, but not for everyone else...
That He, [Christ]is the propitiation for our sins [believers] only ours, but not for the sins of the whole world.
That He gave His life as a ransom for the elect exclusively, but not others...
That only certain predestined ones may believe, in spite of all Christ's offers otherwise...
That God really predestined half the world to perish eternally, and the other half for Salvation...
That the grace of God has appeared only to the pre-selected ones, which brings Salvation to the select few, but not to those others in need.
That Christ came to seek and to save the elect only, but not the rest.
That in due time, Christ died for the elect...
That Christ did not come to call the unrighteous, sinners, but to call only the Elect for Salvation...

Here is the section of verses in context that you mentioned.
1 Corinthians 15:2-6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

There is absolutely nothing here that even implies that Christ only died for some but not for others. You mention that he was talking to believers here. Sure, that is the subset of the Whole world, he is not excluding the others where He has already said repeatedly throughout the New Testament that He died for everyone, the whole world, not only the elect, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The same is true for Irresistible Grace, and for Perseverance of the Saints--Unconditional Eternal Security. Just make a running list of all the verses that clearly and explicitly say that many will depart from the faith...and list the names of real people who have done so.
deny the faith...
abandon the faith...
turn aside from Christ after believing...
be severed from Christ...
be vomited out of Christ's mouth...
make shipwreck of the faith...
overturn the faith of some...
fallen from grace...
believed in vain, after the gospel was preached to them...
turn aside and stoped following Christ...
have one's name blotted out of the book of life,...
become rejected, castaway, reprobate, after preaching Christ to so many others..

and write all the examples of those real people who have done so and are used as examples for real people in the New Testament churches.
Then write a list of verses that clearly and explicitly say that one can't deny the faith, depart from the faith, abandon the faith, make shipwreck of the faith, turn aside after Satan, etc, etc, etc, etc.

There is no such verse. Even if there were one that said explicitly that no one could ever fall away after believing, there are dozens of verses that clearly state otherwise, so you would have to throw out multiple clear verses for the sake of one in order to support your circular argument.
This is common practice for Calvinists.

Also, all Scripture is truth, but that is not the same as saying that the Gospels are the same as the Pauline epistles. Your opening post said Paul's gospel, not the Gospel message.


Grace and Peace.

SA

[beloved57]

Also, all Scripture is truth, but that is not the same as saying that the Gospels are the same as the Pauline epistles. Your opening post said Paul's gospel, not the Gospel message.

Yes paul preached a gospel he had revealed to him 1cor 15:1-4 and that gospel had to do with christ by dying and rising again a people are saved His death saved a people from their sins the elect or chosen ones..

[Salt Agent]

[beloved57]

Paul knew it was a special people he was to reach in corinth , Gods chosen people.

acts 18:

8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

This was according to scripture..God has a people a chosen people..

Isa 53:

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

[Salt Agent]

Paul knew it was a special people he was to reach in corinth , Gods chosen people.

acts 18:

8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized

Ok, so this just proves that there were many believers in Corinth. It is more of an argument against Universalism - the notion that everyone will be saved/are already saved. To my knowledge there is no mainstream Arminian Denomination that teaches Universalism. Many Calvinists confuse these two terms, and accuse Arminians of Universalism. It still doesn't even come close to saying that Christ only died for these, or the Elect, but not for others.

for I have much people in this city

Same story. How/where do you see anything that even implies that Christ only died for some, but not others in this passage???[/color]

If we are going to debate based on what's NOT in a passage, then i can use that verse to prove Resistable Grace, because some resisted. This just doesn't make sense.

There is nothing in this passage, in the Book of Corinthians, the Gospels, or the New Testament that explicitly states that Christ only died for the Elect, but not for others.

The bottom line is that if He only died for some, and not the whole world, then it makes all the clear invitations insincere, and it makes Christ out to be a liar.

The ultimate irony is that the Calvinist denies Free Will, but chooses to be Calvinist. What if some are predestined to be Arminian?

Here's a poll related to the issue of Calvinism, Arminianism and Creation.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=7231

[beloved57]

salt says

The bottom line is that if He only died for some, and not the whole world, then it makes all the clear invitations insincere, and it makes Christ out to be a liar.

Believe what you will I have given you enough testimony of scripture I rest from discussing this further with you..

[Salt Agent]

Greetings, from Central Europe, Beloved,

I am sorry to hear that. I was hoping that others would join in the post as well -even though it is a specialized version of the larger Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate.

As i said before, i think that there is some validity in that.

In this case, it is particularly relevant, because it is a central stone in the arguement which if proven, is a strong support for Calvinism.

On the other hand, if it can't be proven, then it serves as a Dominoe effect, and the other points come crashing down -- except for Inborn Sin- Depravity of Man, which every mainstream Arminian denomination under Christiandom affirms already.

In love, respect and grace as a brother, i would challenge you to ask yourself, why do you continue to hold to doctrine/ideas that don't have clear verses, but when presented with multiple clear verses to the contrary, you blatently ignore them or throw them out, and still hold to UnBiblical ideas.?

I realize that it is not easy to let go of ideas that we have been taught to believe are true.

Salt Agent.