Did paul teach particular redemption in his gospel ?

[beloved57]

1 cor 15:1-4

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Of whom is paul speaking of when he told the corithians in vs 3 how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures ?

First of all paul is Identifying himself with those to whom he is writing by using the pronoun our sins

In the 1st chapter of the letter to corithians lets see how he addresses the recipients of this letter..

1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
So those to whom he writes he designates as # 1 the church of God. This is not in reference to a building , but the church of God is the called out ones that have been recipients of a special calling from out the world, and also designated as a group that God Loves especially and died for in particular..

Acts 20:
28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
So the church of God are called out individuals who have been purchased with the blood of Christ, they have been redeemed..
Another scripture referring to the church of God..eph 5:
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Again the church of God is that called out group of Individuals who are objects of Gods Love and sacrificing death. And notice the emphasis and Gave himself for it !
That’s very important and denotes particular notice..
I have a wife from the Lord and the love that I have for her is of a higher quality and affection than I have for any other women..now Christ love for the church his bride is the object of a special affection above all other humans..the love of marriage is liken unto a covenant love a strong bond…
Notice in jn 13:
1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
Again we see the exclusiveness of Christ loving his own..loving them not the world of men in general but them, his own , and it.
A quick comment on the word it in the eph vs it is denoting a thing as so is lk 19
10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. I believe that the it and the that which was lost are both referring to the church, would not you seek your bride you love and now she is lost ? Well your love is manifested by the fact that you are seeking looking searching for her..The church the bride was lost when she fell in adam , yes the bride sinned in adam…therefore she was lost..more on that point later..
So we see that our sins in the corithians 15 gospel refers to the church of God..and please understand that even though the corithians were a local assembly of the body of Christ, yet this letter can be read by all who are of the true church of God and no matter the time frame..This church has members from the beginning of time until the end of time , its not bound by time..
So he says the church of God then he says to them that are sanctified in Christ jesus
So what does this denote ? These are those who have been set apart for God for a holy purpose. I believe that there are those of the election of grace , that even though they are in a unregenerated state they are still sanctified in Christ jesus until they are called ! Lets look at jude vs 1
1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
God preserves the natural lives of His straying sheep until they are called, yes we are preserved, how ? in jesus Christ..Thats because of our eternal election before the foundation of the world , hence ensuring that in time, we will be recipients of His effectual call..
Paul recognized this after his conversion and having been taught of God..that even before his conversion and even when he was a persecuting raging enemy that he had been sanctified , set apart from his mothers womb..gal 1:
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
That’s the same order I mentioned in jude that is preserved and called later amen..
That takes us to another designation to those to whom paul was writing in corithians that is they were called to be saints..
That means they were effectually called to be saints…That means they were partakers of a heavenly calling..heb 3:
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Now it is important that upon pauls calling, remember he is identifying himself with those for whom it is said our sins..paul was told during his calling that he had been chosen for a special purpose..lets look at acts 9 15
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: now that verse refers to God telling ananias who paul was , which I am sure he told paul ..but hear it from pauls own testimony acts 22:
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
So paul knew himself to be chosen of God and he knew that Christ died for his sins..
So when paul says Christ died for our sins being chosen by God is a solid fact in his own experience and finally , I am going to cut this short , but in acts 18 during his missionary journey , paul came to a very wicked city name coritnth, and it is interesting what God had to say to him about that city..
Acts 18:
8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
12And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia,
Paul was told by the lord himself , to encourage him in his evangelistic campaign , he promised him succsee by saying I have much people in this city…what does that mean ? I have much people..well paul being the scholar he was and familiar with o.t scripture , for remember in our text when referring to them for whom Christ died our sins according to scripture.This means that paul had some knowledge of those who were called my people in the scripture as it related to the death of Christ…Lets look at Isa 53:
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Paul was given assurance by the Lord that he had a people in Corinth a people for whom Christ was stricken.. scripture says for the transgression of my people a chosen people a people that in vs 10 is designated a seed.. a specific people.
That’s why paul says in the corithian passage that Christ died for our sins according to scripture.

So I know paul taught a limited atonement or a particular redemption by these considerations
#1 . He identified himself with the group he said for Christ died for our sins
#2. He was writing to the church of God all oare not of the church of God
#3. Those who are separated or sanctified by Christ jesus
#4 Those who are called..remember peter specified a group by saying all that our lord shall call in the first apostolic sermon recorded..acts 2: 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
#5. Because paul knew himself to be chosen of God
#6. Paul was told to preach in Corinth because he had a chosen people there in that city
#7. paul knew according to scripture that Christ the suffering servant had a people that he was stricken for, for their transgressions , a chosen seed..
This gospel also paul said that he was given this gospel by special revelation from chrsit see gal 1:
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Now we know from the acts 18 passage that the lord told paul that he had people there in Corinth paul knew from being taught by previous revelation of Christ that Christ had a special people given to him from the father . for jesus had already prayed the exclusiveness of his people that his father gave to him..jn 17:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10And all mine are thine, and thine are
There is no doubt in my mind that when paul received special revlation from Christ that Christ told him about these special people given him by the father and that he died for them..
So the gospel that paul preached that he received from Christ is a limited particular atonement for the chosen of God
Christ died for our sins according to scripture..

Any gospel that doesn’t include this truth is another gospel and the proclaimers of it are to be accursed says paul..
Gal 1:
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[Salt Agent]

Greetings,

To answer the question in your opening Post, NO, Paul did not teach Particular Redemption - Limited Atonement.
I respect your right to believe anything you want, but the question is at best nebulous, so we could expect the answers to be as well.

I think you mean/ a better way to post the question would be...
"Did the apostle Paul explicitly teach **Limited Atonement in his epistles?" Paul was not a writer of the Gospels.

Many Christians who have a view on this, don't even know the term Particular Redemption, or that what it means, or that it is the same thing as Limited Atonement in a different wrapper.
I respect and recognize that it may be interesting to analyze particular themes of Paul, and that such a narrow focus can be valid, and have merit.

I will make this brief and not hijack your post.

Having said that, this post itself is really a repackaging of the Calvinism vs Arminianism issue where this is addressed.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=3771

When discussing doctrine, we need to examine the whole counsel of Scripture, and not build theology on the writings of one person to a specific church in a specific time and culture. A better post would be "Does the New Testament explicitly teach Limited Atonement?"

Grace and Peace.

Salt Agent

[beloved57]

Greetings,

To answer the question in your opening Post, NO, Paul did not teach Particular Redemption - Limited Atonement.
I respect your right to believe anything you want, but the question is at best nebulous, so we could expect the answers to be as well.

I think you mean/ a better way to post the question would be...
"Did the apostle Paul explicitly teach **Limited Atonement in his epistles?" Paul was not a writer of the Gospels.

Many Christians who have a view on this, don't even know the term Particular Redemption, or that what it means, or that it is the same thing as Limited Atonement in a different wrapper.
I respect and recognize that it may be interesting to analyze particular themes of Paul, and that such a narrow focus can be valid, and have merit.

I will make this brief and not hijack your post.

Having said that, this post itself is really a repackaging of the Calvinism vs Arminianism issue where this is addressed.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=3771

When discussing doctrine, we need to examine the whole counsel of Scripture, and not build theology on the writings of one person to a specific church in a specific time and culture. A better post would be "Does the New Testament explicitly teach Limited Atonement?"

Grace and Peace.

Salt Agent

sure paul taugt particular redemption in the gospel 1 cor 15 : 3,4 the christ died for our sins..

also the epistles are the same gospel truthes that paul or other faithful men had taught..the truthes are nothing new to the hearers but maybe expanded upon and rehearsed..

Also Jesus taught particular redemption in jn 10:

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Notice he does not say I lay my life down foe the whole world of people..

[Salt Agent]

Dear Beloved,

As i mentioned earlier, there is nothing new here. My suspicion is that you may think people will read this post, but not the other one, where these issues are soundly refuted with scripture. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=3771

It really is very very simple. Just make a list side by side of all the verses that clearly and explicitly state that Jesus' death was only for some and not for others...
That Christ only tasted death for the elect, but not for everyone else...
That He, [Christ]is the propitiation for our sins [believers] only ours, but not for the sins of the whole world.
That He gave His life as a ransom for the elect exclusively, but not others...
That only certain predestined ones may believe, in spite of all Christ's offers otherwise...
That God really predestined half the world to perish eternally, and the other half for Salvation...
That the grace of God has appeared only to the pre-selected ones, which brings Salvation to the select few, but not to those others in need.
That Christ came to seek and to save the elect only, but not the rest.
That in due time, Christ died for the elect...
That Christ did not come to call the unrighteous, sinners, but to call only the Elect for Salvation...

Here is the section of verses in context that you mentioned.
1 Corinthians 15:2-6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

There is absolutely nothing here that even implies that Christ only died for some but not for others. You mention that he was talking to believers here. Sure, that is the subset of the Whole world, he is not excluding the others where He has already said repeatedly throughout the New Testament that He died for everyone, the whole world, not only the elect, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The same is true for Irresistible Grace, and for Perseverance of the Saints--Unconditional Eternal Security. Just make a running list of all the verses that clearly and explicitly say that many will depart from the faith...and list the names of real people who have done so.
deny the faith...
abandon the faith...
turn aside from Christ after believing...
be severed from Christ...
be vomited out of Christ's mouth...
make shipwreck of the faith...
overturn the faith of some...
fallen from grace...
believed in vain, after the gospel was preached to them...
turn aside and stoped following Christ...
have one's name blotted out of the book of life,...
become rejected, castaway, reprobate, after preaching Christ to so many others..

and write all the examples of those real people who have done so and are used as examples for real people in the New Testament churches.
Then write a list of verses that clearly and explicitly say that one can't deny the faith, depart from the faith, abandon the faith, make shipwreck of the faith, turn aside after Satan, etc, etc, etc, etc.

There is no such verse. Even if there were one that said explicitly that no one could ever fall away after believing, there are dozens of verses that clearly state otherwise, so you would have to throw out multiple clear verses for the sake of one in order to support your circular argument.
This is common practice for Calvinists.

Also, all Scripture is truth, but that is not the same as saying that the Gospels are the same as the Pauline epistles. Your opening post said Paul's gospel, not the Gospel message.


Grace and Peace.

SA

[beloved57]

Also, all Scripture is truth, but that is not the same as saying that the Gospels are the same as the Pauline epistles. Your opening post said Paul's gospel, not the Gospel message.

Yes paul preached a gospel he had revealed to him 1cor 15:1-4 and that gospel had to do with christ by dying and rising again a people are saved His death saved a people from their sins the elect or chosen ones..

[Salt Agent]

OK, I have no problem with the notion that Paul and other writers preached the Gospel.

However, you did not address my point regarding your verses you quote. I Corint. 15:1-4.

There is absolutely nothing here that even implies that Christ only died for some but not for others. You mention that he was talking to believers here. Sure, that is the subset of the Whole world, he is not excluding the others where He has already said repeatedly throughout the New Testament that He died for everyone, the whole world, not only the elect, but also for the sins of the whole world.

There is nothing here about only elect being saved, but not the rest of the whole world. This is eisegesis --reading something into the text that is not there.

Contrast this vague verse which is talking to a group of believers with I John 2:1-3.

1 John 2:1-3 (New International Version)

1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

And multiple other clear verses that state that Christ died for everyone. The biggest problem is that this knocks down Calvinism's elitist, unBiblical house of cards.

[beloved57]

Paul knew it was a special people he was to reach in corinth , Gods chosen people.

acts 18:

8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

This was according to scripture..God has a people a chosen people..

Isa 53:

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

[Salt Agent]

Paul knew it was a special people he was to reach in corinth , Gods chosen people.

acts 18:

8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized

Ok, so this just proves that there were many believers in Corinth. It is more of an argument against Universalism - the notion that everyone will be saved/are already saved. To my knowledge there is no mainstream Arminian Denomination that teaches Universalism. Many Calvinists confuse these two terms, and accuse Arminians of Universalism. It still doesn't even come close to saying that Christ only died for these, or the Elect, but not for others.

for I have much people in this city

Same story. How/where do you see anything that even implies that Christ only died for some, but not others in this passage???[/color]

If we are going to debate based on what's NOT in a passage, then i can use that verse to prove Resistable Grace, because some resisted. This just doesn't make sense.

There is nothing in this passage, in the Book of Corinthians, the Gospels, or the New Testament that explicitly states that Christ only died for the Elect, but not for others.

The bottom line is that if He only died for some, and not the whole world, then it makes all the clear invitations insincere, and it makes Christ out to be a liar.

The ultimate irony is that the Calvinist denies Free Will, but chooses to be Calvinist. What if some are predestined to be Arminian?

Here's a poll related to the issue of Calvinism, Arminianism and Creation.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=7231

[beloved57]

salt says

The bottom line is that if He only died for some, and not the whole world, then it makes all the clear invitations insincere, and it makes Christ out to be a liar.

Believe what you will I have given you enough testimony of scripture I rest from discussing this further with you..

[Salt Agent]

Greetings, from Central Europe, Beloved,

I am sorry to hear that. I was hoping that others would join in the post as well -even though it is a specialized version of the larger Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate.

As i said before, i think that there is some validity in that.

In this case, it is particularly relevant, because it is a central stone in the arguement which if proven, is a strong support for Calvinism.

On the other hand, if it can't be proven, then it serves as a Dominoe effect, and the other points come crashing down -- except for Inborn Sin- Depravity of Man, which every mainstream Arminian denomination under Christiandom affirms already.

In love, respect and grace as a brother, i would challenge you to ask yourself, why do you continue to hold to doctrine/ideas that don't have clear verses, but when presented with multiple clear verses to the contrary, you blatently ignore them or throw them out, and still hold to UnBiblical ideas.?

I realize that it is not easy to let go of ideas that we have been taught to believe are true.

Salt Agent.