Trumpism and Inerrancy??

[gadfly]

It doesn't seem like this subforum is used much, based on the dates of more recent activity.

I want to explore a possible relationship between Trumpism (and Trumpists) and the theory of biblical inerrancy. Has the latter paved the way for the former?

Inerrancy maintains that every indicative in the bible is true and at face value. So if the bible says the world was created in six days, then it was. If science tells us it is not, then true faith consists in siding with the bible no matter the evidence against it. Indeed, the more wrong the bible appears to be, the greater value is our faith by doubling, tripling, quadrupling, down.

We see a similar pattern in the ranks of trumpists--the more insane trump appears to be, the dumber the things he says (stop hurricanes with nuclear missiles) the more fervent trumpsters become in their near religious loyalty to the man.

Is there a logical (or historical) relation?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to gadfly in post #1]

I want to explore a possible relationship between Trumpism (and Trumpists) and the theory of biblical inerrancy. Has the latter paved the way for the former?

I strongly suspect that it has, especially since evangelical pundits have been comparing him to Cyrus and Moses. It's even raised concerns among their fellows:
https://www.christianpost.com/voices/tr ... bling.html

[placebofactor]

[Replying to gadfly in post #1]

I want to explore a possible relationship between Trumpism (and Trumpists) and the theory of biblical inerrancy. Has the latter paved the way for the former?

I strongly suspect that it has, especially since evangelical pundits have been comparing him to Cyrus and Moses. It's even raised concerns among their fellows:
https://www.christianpost.com/voices/tr ... bling.html

Scientific theories: Nothing created everything. Hmmm!
Okay, let's say there was that one thing that began the creation. And over the past 15 billion years, it went from that one single thing to the complexity of the earth, of man and everything in it, all things working together to sustain life, and the solar system. The odds calculated by mathematicians to accomplish all that are 40 to the 80,000 power. Believe that, and I'll sell you the Statue of Liberty for $100.00.

The difference between Republicans and Democrats at a rate of 8 to 10, Republicans believe in God, and Democrats are atheists, homosexuals, or homosexual lovers, socialists, and loud-mouth women. They represent ignorance and corruption, Lawyers gone wild, and throw in a whole truckload of liars. Democrats claim men are not men, women are not women, Morons!

Cyrus, King of the Persian Empire, was prophesied by Isaiah 100 years before his birth, and was said to be a shepherd unto the LORD. Moses was a leader of men, a man guided by the word of God. Both were successful, accomplishing the will of God. As for Donald Trump, time will tell if he is also a shepherd of the LORD, a person chosen to lead the last Christian nation, America, through these last days. The LORD will use whomever he chooses in order to accomplish his will, and Donald Trump may be the "Last Trump" of Revelation.

I believe Joe Biden was put into the office in 2020 with his declining mental condition as President to rid the Democrats four-years later of all power in the House, Senate, and Presidency. I don't know if Donald Trump is a true Christian or not, that's not in my hands, but whatever he is, he has been selected by the American people and the LORD to bring us through these last few years to the front door of the Great Tribulation.

That's my take.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #3]

Scientific theories: Nothing created everything. Hmmm!
Okay, let's say there was that one thing that began the creation. And over the past 15 billion years, it went from that one single thing to the complexity of the earth, of man and everything in it, all things working together to sustain life, and the solar system. The odds calculated by mathematicians to accomplish all that are 40 to the 80,000 power. Believe that, and I'll sell you the Statue of Liberty for $100.00.

Are you sure you're responding to this thread?

If you're looking for my approach to cosmology, then start here:
viewtopic.php?p=1118540&hilit=Y2K#p1118540

Cyrus, King of the Persian Empire, was prophesied by Isaiah 100 years before his birth

"Scholarly consensus is that the book of Isaiah was not written by its namesake prophet singlehandedly. The book covers an expansive period of time—compiled over a period of approximately 2 centuries, which seems to point to it being a composition of several prophets or writers active during this period of Israel’s history."
https://alabasterco.com/blogs/education ... rlA162yCsd

As for Donald Trump, time will tell if he is also a shepherd of the LORD

I believe you've mentioned elsewhere that you used to be a Marine, which makes you a veteran. Have you been following this?
https://prospect.org/health/2025-02-25- ... g-slashed/

I don't know if Donald Trump is a true Christian or not, that's not in my hands, but whatever he is, he has been selected by the American people and the LORD to bring us through these last few years to the front door of the Great Tribulation.

According to the Bible, King Saul was selected by the people too.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #3]

Scientific theories: Nothing created everything. Hmmm!
Okay, let's say there was that one thing that began the creation. And over the past 15 billion years, it went from that one single thing to the complexity of the earth, of man and everything in it, all things working together to sustain life, and the solar system. The odds calculated by mathematicians to accomplish all that are 40 to the 80,000 power. Believe that, and I'll sell you the Statue of Liberty for $100.00.

Are you sure you're responding to this thread?

If you're looking for my approach to cosmology, then start here:
viewtopic.php?p=1118540&hilit=Y2K#p1118540

Cyrus, King of the Persian Empire, was prophesied by Isaiah 100 years before his birth

"Scholarly consensus is that the book of Isaiah was not written by its namesake prophet singlehandedly. The book covers an expansive period of time—compiled over a period of approximately 2 centuries, which seems to point to it being a composition of several prophets or writers active during this period of Israel’s history."
https://alabasterco.com/blogs/education ... rlA162yCsd

Makes no difference who wrote the book; all the prophecies came to pass.

As for Donald Trump, time will tell if he is also a shepherd of the LORD

I believe you've mentioned elsewhere that you used to be a Marine, which makes you a veteran. Have you been following this?
https://prospect.org/health/2025-02-25- ... g-slashed/

Once I offered my body to science, they rejected it and told me to donate it to science fiction. I'm too old to do anything but debate with people like you. My service began in 1957 and ended in 1962. Now I'm old, nobody wants 87-year-old people around.

I don't know if Donald Trump is a true Christian or not, that's not in my hands, but whatever he is, he has been selected by the American people and the LORD to bring us through these last few years to the front door of the Great Tribulation.

According to the Bible, King Saul was selected by the people too.

That's true, but it was against the will of God and Samuel. But the LORD said, if they don't want me to lead them, then have the people select their own King. The results: Not good, not good at all. That's what happens when people disobey God.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #5]

According to the Bible, King Saul was selected by the people too.

That's true, but it was against the will of God and Samuel. But the LORD said, if they don't want me to lead them, then have the people select their own King.

Well, the blame isn't assigned solely to them.

Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions....”
(1 Samuel 15:10-11)

The results: Not good, not good at all. That's what happens when people disobey God.

Could that be happening now?

"Business is a confidence game. The president is losing the confidence of business leaders around the globe. The consequences for our country and the millions of our citizens who have supported the president — in particular low-income consumers who are already under a huge amount of economic stress — are going to be severely negative.”
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho ... rcna200046

In that day you will cry out because of your king you have chosen for yourselves....
(1Samuel 8:18)

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #5]

Makes no difference who wrote the book; all the prophecies came to pass.

Unless the "fulfillments" were written by later authors. Hindsight is 20/20.

Once I offered my body to science, they rejected it and told me to donate it to science fiction. I'm too old to do anything but debate with people like you. My service began in 1957 and ended in 1962. Now I'm old, nobody wants 87-year-old people around.

You're never too old to have something to say.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #5]

Makes no difference who wrote the book; all the prophecies came to pass.

Unless the "fulfillments" were written by later authors. Hindsight is 20/20.

Once I offered my body to science, they rejected it and told me to donate it to science fiction. I'm too old to do anything but debate with people like you. My service began in 1957 and ended in 1962. Now I'm old, nobody wants 87-year-old people around.

You're never too old to have something to say.

So, your concern is that the prophecies written in books like Daniel and Hosea were written after the facts, is that correct? That’s a legitimate concern, and has been for hundreds of years, and was for me also 45 years ago. Over the past 3000 years, many great Empires have come and gone, and to this day, they no longer exist. Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans. Their greatness today lies in fallen stones, broken images, and dust. But only one nation has been prophesied that it will never be destroyed. Persecuted, yes! Stripped naked and cast out of their land, yes! But not abandoned.

In May of 1948, three years after World War 2 ended, and after half of the Jewish population of the World was murdered and plundered, a miracle happened. As promised, Israel and their people were returned to their land on May 14th, 1948. That convinced me 45 years ago that the Bible is inspired by God.

But the evidence that Daniel was written between 605 and 536 B.C. is the prophecies themselves. The visions found in Daniel predict with unimaginable accuracy that the 11th emperor of Rome (Domitian) would persecute the church, change the calendar, and the legal system of Rome. The writer predicted that the persecution of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes (167-164 BC) would occur 300 years after Daniel wrote. Daniel predicted that Jesus (the Jewish Messiah) would be made known around 27 A.D., according to Daniel 12:11-12, and he was.

Here’s the kick in the butt! In chapter 11-12 alone, there are well over one hundred historically fulfilled predictive prophecies that extend to today, 2025 Assigning each of them a conservative Bayes Factor of 10 would yield a massive cumulative Bayes Factor of more than 10 to the 100 power meaning that the data is 10 to the 100 power more probable on the hypothesis of divine inspiration than on the idea that it was written after.

Daniel also predicted that the destruction of Jerusalem would come soon after. His prophecies are unmistakable evidence that his book had to be inspired by God. That being true, it is quite obvious that the book’s claim that the visions were recorded by Daniel himself must be true. To me, it would be foolish for anyone to believe that the books of the Bible are not God-inspired but forgeries.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #8]

In May of 1948, three years after World War 2 ended, and after half of the Jewish population of the World was murdered and plundered, a miracle happened. As promised, Israel and their people were returned to their land on May 14th, 1948.

Are you aware that there are many Jews who don't believe that this was a fulfillment of prophecy?


(0:56-1:31)

The writer predicted that the persecution of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes (167-164 BC) would occur 300 years after Daniel wrote.

Let's take a look from another perspective.

Daniel itself purports to be a 6th century B.C. record made by an actual Daniel, a Jewish prophet in exile, of events around and after 600 B.C. It even purports to contain epistles and decrees written by the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar himself (Daniel 4:1-18 and 4:34-37) and the fictional Babylonian king “Darius the Mede” (Daniel 6:6-12 and 6:25-28), which are ridiculously ahistorical fabrications self-evidently in service of Jewish propaganda, matching no actual evidence from the period. These epistles and decrees simply don’t exist in Babylonian or Persian records, nor do any records of any kind support any of the events peculiarly related in the book of Daniel. More importantly, were any of this true, Daniel could not make fundamental historical errors about that very time and place. Yet the book we have, does. In fact, whoever wrote it, knew the actual history of the period very poorly.

.....

Daniel 11:1-4 is not so accurate, but Daniel 11:5-39 is spot on, and that chapter gets progressively more detailed and precise as it follows history along from the Persian to the Alexandrian and then the Seleucid eras, until it spends the most verses, and with the most verifiable detail, on the ten year reign of Antiochus, all the way up to just before his death (and the Jewish recapture of Jerusalem) in 164, during the Maccabean Revolt. As Seow observes, therefore, “the interests” of the “author and probably its audience are focused on that decade.” So the book of Daniel is really about that period of history, and was written for Jewish readers going through that decade. It was thus clearly written as an inspirational tract for the people fighting for the Jewish rebellion under the Maccabees; it was probably passed off as a forgotten book “serendipitously rediscovered” at just the right moment when increased resolve was needed to finally vanquish the enemy Antiochus (the convenient “discovery” of long lost books was a known way to pass off forgeries promoting going political movements; one can suspect it for Deuteronomy, the Linen Rolls and Sibylline Oracles, and the original Ascension of Isaiah).
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18242

Daniel predicted that Jesus (the Jewish Messiah) would be made known around 27 A.D., according to Daniel 12:11-12, and he was.

Again, let's take another look.

By creating a sixty-nine week period, which is not divided into two separate periods of |seven weeks and sixty-two weeks respectively, Christians reach an incorrect conclusion, |i.e., that the Messiah will come 483 years after the destruction of the First Temple.
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... ranslation

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #8]

In May of 1948, three years after World War 2 ended, and after half of the Jewish population of the World was murdered and plundered, a miracle happened. As promised, Israel and their people were returned to their land on May 14th, 1948.

Are you aware that there are many Jews who don't believe that this was a fulfillment of prophecy?


(0:56-1:31)

The writer predicted that the persecution of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes (167-164 BC) would occur 300 years after Daniel wrote.

Let's take a look from another perspective.

Daniel itself purports to be a 6th century B.C. record made by an actual Daniel, a Jewish prophet in exile, of events around and after 600 B.C. It even purports to contain epistles and decrees written by the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar himself (Daniel 4:1-18 and 4:34-37) and the fictional Babylonian king “Darius the Mede” (Daniel 6:6-12 and 6:25-28), which are ridiculously ahistorical fabrications self-evidently in service of Jewish propaganda, matching no actual evidence from the period. These epistles and decrees simply don’t exist in Babylonian or Persian records, nor do any records of any kind support any of the events peculiarly related in the book of Daniel. More importantly, were any of this true, Daniel could not make fundamental historical errors about that very time and place. Yet the book we have, does. In fact, whoever wrote it, knew the actual history of the period very poorly.

.....

Daniel 11:1-4 is not so accurate, but Daniel 11:5-39 is spot on, and that chapter gets progressively more detailed and precise as it follows history along from the Persian to the Alexandrian and then the Seleucid eras, until it spends the most verses, and with the most verifiable detail, on the ten year reign of Antiochus, all the way up to just before his death (and the Jewish recapture of Jerusalem) in 164, during the Maccabean Revolt. As Seow observes, therefore, “the interests” of the “author and probably its audience are focused on that decade.” So the book of Daniel is really about that period of history, and was written for Jewish readers going through that decade. It was thus clearly written as an inspirational tract for the people fighting for the Jewish rebellion under the Maccabees; it was probably passed off as a forgotten book “serendipitously rediscovered” at just the right moment when increased resolve was needed to finally vanquish the enemy Antiochus (the convenient “discovery” of long lost books was a known way to pass off forgeries promoting going political movements; one can suspect it for Deuteronomy, the Linen Rolls and Sibylline Oracles, and the original Ascension of Isaiah).
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18242

Daniel predicted that Jesus (the Jewish Messiah) would be made known around 27 A.D., according to Daniel 12:11-12, and he was.

Again, let's take another look.

By creating a sixty-nine week period, which is not divided into two separate periods of |seven weeks and sixty-two weeks respectively, Christians reach an incorrect conclusion, |i.e., that the Messiah will come 483 years after the destruction of the First Temple.
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... ranslation

Thanks for your reply, well thought out. I consider the Bible to be an accurate account of history, written by men who were, for the most part, witnesses to these historic events. I'm not sure if you follow the headlines on the internet daily, but I do. Archaeologists have been making discoveries in Israel and surrounding areas like the Dead Sea, that support the Bible. As for today's historians, every one of them wants to sell books, I'll leave it at that. When the Assyrian Empire collapsed, it broke up into 3 empires: the Babylonians, the Medes, and the Persians.

We can discuss Darius and Cyrus later. But consider this, the Medes were one Empire, and the Persians another. Darius, also called (Cyaxares 2) was the 7th King of Media, from 559 to 536 B.C. At the same time, Cyrus the Great was the 1st King of the Persians. There was also another King in Persia named Darius who ruled from 521 to 486 B.C. Most of these Kings lived in Daniel's time of captivity.

You wrote, "Daniel 11:1-4 is not so accurate, but Daniel 11:5-39 is spot on, and that chapter gets progressively more detailed and precise as it follows history along from the Persian to the Alexandrian and then the Seleucid eras, until it spends the most verses, and with the most verifiable detail, on the ten year reign of Antiochus, all the way up to just before his death (and the Jewish recapture of Jerusalem) in 164, during the Maccabean Revolt. As Seow observes, therefore, “the interests” of the “author and probably its audience are focused on that decade.” So the book of Daniel is really about that period of history, and was written for Jewish readers going through that decade. It was thus clearly written as an inspirational tract for the people fighting for the Jewish rebellion under the Maccabees; it was probably passed off as a forgotten book “serendipitously rediscovered” at just the right moment when increased resolve was needed to finally vanquish the enemy Antiochus (the convenient “discovery” of long lost books was a known way to pass off forgeries promoting going political movements; one can suspect it for Deuteronomy, the Linen Rolls and Sibylline Oracles, and the original Ascension of Isaiah).[/i]
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18242"

From Daniel 1 to the last chapter, his prophecies cover a period beginning in 606 B.C. when he went into captivity until the return of the Lord, yet future. Daniel was in his 90s when he died, so he witnessed a great deal during the span of his life. Now, let me move on to your next comments. The seventy-year prophecy of Jeremiah began when Daniel was taken in 606 B.C. and the Jews were released in 536 B.C., = 70 years.

Daniel predicted that Jesus (the Jewish Messiah) would be made known around 27 A.D., according to Daniel 12:11-12, and he was.

Again, let's take another look.

You wrote, By creating a sixty-nine week period, which is not divided into two separate periods of |seven weeks and sixty-two weeks respectively, Christians reach an incorrect conclusion, |i.e., that the Messiah will come 483 years after the destruction of the First Temple.
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... ranslation
[/quote]

I agree!

Here's my take on the subject:
Daniel 9:24, K.J.B., "Seventy weeks (490) years are determined upon your people (the Jews) and upon the holy city (Jerusalem)." The 490 years are broken down into 4 specific time frames. 49 years, 434 years, 3 1/2 years, and 3 1/2 years. We can get into details later. Here's the key to solving the prophecy of 490 years. But we need to know when it started.

1. Cyrus, King of Persia in 536 B.C., freed all 12 tribes from Babylonian captivity, but few returned to Israel. A second decree was made by Darius (or Cyaxares) the Mede around 539 B.C., enforcing Cyrus's decree. Then there was a third decree signed by Artaxerxes Longimanus, son of Xerxes the Great, who authored two decrees. Both would have allowed the Jews to return to their homeland, to rebuild their Temple. The first came in 457 B.C., see Ezra 7:7-8, the second in 444 B.C.

Artaxerxes Longimanus first decree was the one that fulfilled Daniel’s prophecy found in Daniel 9:25. “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore, and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

The keyword is "wall."this word wall in Hebrew does not refer to a stone wall, but to a deep moat that was dug out around the city of Jerusalem. Recently, archaeologists have uncovered a moat going around Jerusalem that is 30' deep and 100' wide. Zerubbabel, in an earlier decree, was told to return to Israel to repair the gates and the Stone wall around the city.

So, the year 457 B.C. gives us a starting point for the 490-year prophecy found in Daniel 9:24-25. In Verse 25, we find the key to the prophecy. “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandments to restore, and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (483 years).” Let’s test this by putting it on a timeline.

Remember, I said Daniel’s prophecy is broken down into four periods; the first 49 years were to be followed by 434 years, with seven years remaining. Now the seven years were divided into two 3 ½ years periods.
Malachi, the last prophet of the O.T. begins his book in 436 B.C. and ends in 408 B.C. According to Daniel’s prophecy, the first 49 years began in 457 and ended in 408 B.C., also the end of Malachi. This was to be followed by a second period of 434 years, which would have ended on October 27 A.D. This was the year and month John the Baptist, Andrew, and Peter announced “We have found the Messiah” fulfilling Daniel’s prophesy found in verse 25, “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment (457 B.C.) to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (27 A.D.) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (483 years):”
So, two periods of 3 ½ years remain. the first period of 3 1/2 years began in October of 27 and ended in April of 31 A.D., the day before Passover at the cross. As of today, 3 ½ years remain. These last 3 1/2 years will be the time the Jews will suffer their greatest and most horrific persecution ever, even worse than Adolf Hitler's massacre.

Your thoughts.