Is your belief in God, entirely dependent upon

[Elijah John]

Is your belief in God entirely dependent upon your belief that Jesus himself is God, the 2nd person of the Trinity?

If the arguments of skeptics here on these boards, or the arguments of Historical Jesus Scholars such as Bart Ehrmann or John Dominic Crossan, or even the arguments of Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims or Jews suddenly clicked in your mind, with a light-bulb-"aha" realization that Jesus is not God, never claimed to be God, and none of his contemporaries every called him "God", what would you do?

Would you retain your general belief in God, as Father? Would you join another religion such as Islam or Judaism? Would you attempt to salvage what you can of Chrisitanity in a unitarian (small "u" not necessarily UU) fashion?

Or would that discovery cause you to become an atheist or an agnostic?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Is your belief in God entirely dependent upon your belief that Jesus himself is God, the 2nd person of the Trinity?

Not in the least.

I do not believe Jesus is God or God is a Trinity.

My beliefs were not derived from anyone else or any persuasion, but from my own search and meditation.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Your questions are very easy to test by a simple counter-question: How can God be both just and merciful?

If you can answer that then we can entertain that the other beliefs might be right.

The only way I can answer that leads me to conclude that Jesus is God.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Your questions are very easy to test by a simple counter-question: How can God be both just and merciful?

The fact that you start your argument with this question reveals that you begin with the assumption that God is both just and merciful.

The only way I can answer that leads me to conclude that Jesus is God.

You might as well just state this as your beginning assumption. Basing this conclusion on your previous unsupported assumption provides nothing to your argument.

It appears that you hope no one will notice the flaw in your conclusion because you expect readers to accept your initial assumption even though you've provided no reason to do so.

[marco]

Or would that discovery cause you to become an atheist or an agnostic?

Since Jesus being God is a major part of one's Christian belief, a conviction that this is not so would certainly upset the theological apple cart. Jesus is the human face of God; sometimes meek and mild, sometimes lonely, the court of appeal to the Father, the healer of hurts. His divine demise would alter one's view of God. It would mean we would have to rely more on OT tales and I'm afraid God doesn't present himself as humanity's friend there. I think many folk like the personal Jesus, the whisperer in quiet moments rather than the booming thunderer, destroyer of cities and Lot's wife.

The depth of feeling for popular Jesus is captured well in the song that was sung in Cool hand Luke:


"I don't care if it rains or freezes
'Long as I got my plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car"

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Your questions are very easy to test by a simple counter-question: How can God be both just and merciful?

If you can answer that then we can entertain that the other beliefs might be right.

The only way I can answer that leads me to conclude that Jesus is God.

That's a curious way of trinitizing the deity. By this means you can introduce dozens of persons in God, depending on the quality being dispensed. God of justice, God of healing, God of mercy, God of love, God of war.... And hey presto, we're back in ancient Greece or Rome.

[Elijah John]

Or would that discovery cause you to become an atheist or an agnostic?

Since Jesus being God is a major part of one's Christian belief, a conviction that this is not so would certainly upset the theological apple cart. Jesus is the human face of God; sometimes meek and mild, sometimes lonely, the court of appeal to the Father, the healer of hurts. His divine demise would alter one's view of God. It would mean we would have to rely more on OT tales and I'm afraid God doesn't present himself as humanity's friend there. I think many folk like the personal Jesus, the whisperer in quiet moments rather than the booming thunderer, destroyer of cities and Lot's wife.

The depth of feeling for popular Jesus is captured well in the song that was sung in Cool hand Luke:


"I don't care if it rains or freezes
'Long as I got my plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car"

Yes, Jesus as the human face of God is a very appealing notion. But that appeal does not make it true, at least not literally. Remember, Jesus wanted all of his disciples to be the "light of the world" and present a benevolent image of God. (interesting to note that John's Jesus, by contrast, grasps that title for himself exclusively.)

But to present the "Old Testament God" as a foil for Jesus, and a contrasting Deity is a false dichotomy. Remember, Elijah's enounter with God not in booming thunder or in the destruction of cities, but in the "still small voice"? The portrait of God in the Hebrew Bible is not quite so simiplistic as you sometimes seem to convey.

Nor is Jesus always benevolent and benign, as you know.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Your questions are very easy to test by a simple counter-question: How can God be both just and merciful?

If you can answer that then we can entertain that the other beliefs might be right.

The only way I can answer that leads me to conclude that Jesus is God.

You do have a point, and your agrument amounts to a refutation of the JW notion that Jesus is not God, but still atones. And if this were a topic about atonement, your reply would have more relevance. But it isn't, so it doesn't really. However, the Triinitrian argument for the Divine atonement really amounts to "God sacrificing Himself to himself to give Himself permission to forgive sin". Doesn't it?

[ttruscott]

Is your belief in God entirely dependent upon your belief that Jesus himself is God, the 2nd person of the Trinity?
...
Or would that discovery cause you to become an atheist or an agnostic?

I have lived with the possibility my faith in Jesus as a Divine Christ was misplaced for 40 years...but once I accepted YHWH as my GOD and Christ as my saviour from my evil, I have only put my faith in Him as Divine.

If and when GOD, not man, not philosophy, not the arguments of "skeptics here on these boards, or the arguments of Historical Jesus Scholars such as Bart Ehrmann or John Dominic Crossan, or even the arguments of Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims or Jews", then I will accept the consequences of my decision. There is no way these things will ever click for me...

[Elijah John]

Is your belief in God entirely dependent upon your belief that Jesus himself is God, the 2nd person of the Trinity?
...
Or would that discovery cause you to become an atheist or an agnostic?

I have lived with the possibility my faith in Jesus as a Divine Christ was misplaced for 40 years...but once I accepted YHWH as my GOD and Christ as my saviour from my evil, I have only put my faith in Him as Divine.

If and when GOD, not man, not philosophy, not the arguments of "skeptics here on these boards, or the arguments of Historical Jesus Scholars such as Bart Ehrmann or John Dominic Crossan, or even the arguments of Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims or Jews", then I will accept the consequences of my decision. There is no way these things will ever click for me...

So, if God convinced you that Jesus is not God, then of course, you would still believe in God, if I'm reading you right. Your faith in God is not dependent on your belief that Jesus is God.

What makes you so certain that Jesus is God?