God's Sovereignty

[th1bill]

There are over one hundred and twenty references to the sovereignty of God and the Naves Topical, under God>Sovereignty, lists them. The study is not a short/quick study. I have often seen the question published on the net, “Why Does God Permit Evil?� This is not an unreasonable question for any person, lost or saved, to ask. In my opinion it is a required subject for the Christian to learn to answer.

Now, as demonstrated in the study of God's Sovereignty, He is sovereign over the entire Earth and all of it's happenings. At the same time, if we have studied the scriptures much at all we know that there is no evil in God for He is good and good and evil are opposites. A yearly read through the book of Job will give us a good reason and material to meditate upon in the matter of what God does and does not do as well as what God will permit outside of His perfect will (2Pet. 3:9.) God uses everything that happens on the Earth to call lost men to repentance and salvation.

Job was a righteous man in everything he did and still, God permitted Satan to kill his children, destroy the fruits of his labor and to afflict him with horrible pain and suffering. What was God doing? God never allows Satan to afflict His saints unless there is Spiritual growth to be had. Job 19:1-12 shows us that Job thought God had done this to him but to Job's credit he refused to curse God (Job 2:9-10.)

In the end of it all, Job knew that God had and would always rescue him and Job's faith was multiplied when it was all said and done. And God did not leave Job in that condition but made him better off than he ever was before.

So, how does that relate to us today? I offer you a true life example. I went to Vietnam in June of 1966 and in September of that year I found my best friend after an eighty-one mm. mortar had exploded on his chest. Up to this point I was an alcoholic atheist but as I stood, cursing the God I refused to worship, He spoke to me. God said, “Why curse me, you don't even believe!� My lack of knowledge of the Spiritual life immediately changed. I wasn't a Christian, but for the next 23 years I was a seeker. I had become a Deist and was seeking the one true God.

Does God permit Satan to do evil? It's difficult to argue against the Bible since it is he very Word of God for His believers. God permitted an action that has influenced my life for the past 44 years and as a result of that I have learned that it is a terrible thing to be found, judged by God. I also learned that man is not as supreme as he wants to be but that instead that we are, all of us, in need of God and His mercy. In war I have seen, what is perhaps, a very small example of God's wrath. Am I saying my friend suffered God's wrath? Directly or indirectly, yes. So did I!

I know that the folks that teach, come to Christ and all your troubles end right there, are not teaching the truth o God's word. Have I been attacked by Satan since I converted and bowed my knee in submission? You can certainly believe I have. I am often guilty of upsetting the 'God is love crowd' by teaching the hard doctrines of God, because while it is so very true that God is love, there is so much more to understand about God. I have been serious about my study now for better than 19 years and what I have learned about God has opened the way to so very much more that I do not know and understand yet. I will study the rest of my life and yet I know that if I live another 65 years I will still be studying God, trying to know Him better and still not know everything about Him.

There is true evil in this world, I have seen it. I've held a 6 month old in my arms as it died of the gun shot wounds, that's evil! But out of it all, I have learned to never curse God but to move forward, just like the soldier the US Army trained, and to work toward God's perfect will as He opens and closes doors. God is good and as His soldiers, the Good War is our fight.

[JoeyKnothead]

I can't help thinking the "greatest evil" is perpetrated by Christians who use war and war terminology to support their cause.

[th1bill]

I can't help thinking the "greatest evil" is perpetrated by Christians who use war and war terminology to support their cause.

Before that statement can ever be thought of in the vein of credibility the term or title Christian must be defined. If we go to the source we find that a Christian, biblically, is a person that has an ongoing or active, personal, relationship with Jesus. All others, and that includes over 90 per cent of the seated Church members, are pretenders.

You can look up the Barnum people for the blind survey stats from the mid-eighties. So the question raises it's ugly head in need of an answer, "Is less than 10% of the proclaimed Christian Community, less than 1% of the world population, responsible or is it pretenders, just like the Wanna-Bees, found in all levels of society?

[Goat]

I can't help thinking the "greatest evil" is perpetrated by Christians who use war and war terminology to support their cause.

Before that statement can ever be thought of in the vein of credibility the term or title Christian must be defined. If we go to the source we find that a Christian, biblically, is a person that has an ongoing or active, personal, relationship with Jesus. All others, and that includes over 90 per cent of the seated Church members, are pretenders.

Since you are taking 'biblically, can you back up your definition with the specific bible quotes, in context?

Context is very important. So many people run their theology on bits and pieces in a non-contextual way.

[th1bill]

Since you are taking 'biblically, can you back up your definition with the specific bible quotes, in context?

Context is very important. So many people run their theology on bits and pieces in a non-contextual way.

I would open with Matt. 7:13-14 and then a closer definition is drawn from John 10:27. Of course there is more and they are readily found with the Nave's Topical or the internet search engine of your choice.

[Goat]

Since you are taking 'biblically, can you back up your definition with the specific bible quotes, in context?

Context is very important. So many people run their theology on bits and pieces in a non-contextual way.

I would open with Matt. 7:13-14 and then a closer definition is drawn from John 10:27. Of course there is more and they are readily found with the Nave's Topical or the internet search engine of your choice.

Now, let's look at your claim.. your claim is ". If we go to the source we find that a Christian, biblically, is a person that has an ongoing or active, personal, relationship with Jesus.", and then you say that matthew 7:13-14 backs that up.

Matthew 7:13-14 says
7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So, Matthew 13-14 says nothong about having a relationship with Jesus in any way or form.. ..

And john 10:27 says

7:27 Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.

Doesn't seem to fit your definition either..

There seems to be some conflict between what you say the bible says, and what the bible actually says.

And that is even before going into the issue 'Is the bible a valid authority on this subject'

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 3:

Before that statement can ever be thought of in the vein of credibility the term or title Christian must be defined. If we go to the source we find that a Christian, biblically, is a person that has an ongoing or active, personal, relationship with Jesus. All others, and that includes over 90 per cent of the seated Church members, are pretenders.

How can one have a relationship with something that can't be shown to be there?

I do agree it can be a tricky deal determining who exactly is a "true Christian".

You can look up the Barnum people for the blind survey stats from the mid-eighties. So the question raises it's ugly head in need of an answer, "Is less than 10% of the proclaimed Christian Community, less than 1% of the world population, responsible or is it pretenders, just like the Wanna-Bees, found in all levels of society?

I agree that holding the majority responsible for the minority is a bit off, but with such a conflicting book, who's to say which is which?

Do I "turn the other cheek", or do I "smite thee"? (not you as the 'thee-ee' there, you seem like a cool guy I could learn from)

[th1bill]

Since you are taking 'biblically, can you back up your definition with the specific bible quotes, in context?

Context is very important. So many people run their theology on bits and pieces in a non-contextual way.

I would open with Matt. 7:13-14 and then a closer definition is drawn from John 10:27. Of course there is more and they are readily found with the Nave's Topical or the internet search engine of your choice.

Now, let's look at your claim.. your claim is ". If we go to the source we find that a Christian, biblically, is a person that has an ongoing or active, personal, relationship with Jesus.", and then you say that matthew 7:13-14 backs that up.

Matthew 7:13-14 says
7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So, Matthew 13-14 says nothong about having a relationship with Jesus in any way or form.. ..

And john 10:27 says

7:27 Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.

Doesn't seem to fit your definition either..

There seems to be some conflict between what you say the bible says, and what the bible actually says.

And that is even before going into the issue 'Is the bible a valid authority on this subject'

I'm going to make a demand that might infuriate the living hell out of you but it is my right to do so. This string had a title and a subject, stick to it and I'll answer you. keep running down rabbit trails and playing stupid butt atheist and I'll ignore you!

The internet is a wonderful place and we all hae the same rights and none are required to contend with intentional stupidity.

[th1bill]

Since you are taking 'biblically, can you back up your definition with the specific bible quotes, in context?

Context is very important. So many people run their theology on bits and pieces in a non-contextual way.

I would open with Matt. 7:13-14 and then a closer definition is drawn from John 10:27. Of course there is more and they are readily found with the Nave's Topical or the internet search engine of your choice.

Now, let's look at your claim.. your claim is ". If we go to the source we find that a Christian, biblically, is a person that has an ongoing or active, personal, relationship with Jesus.", and then you say that matthew 7:13-14 backs that up.

Matthew 7:13-14 says
7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So, Matthew 13-14 says nothong about having a relationship with Jesus in any way or form.. ..

And john 10:27 says

7:27 Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.

Doesn't seem to fit your definition either..

There seems to be some conflict between what you say the bible says, and what the bible actually says.

And that is even before going into the issue 'Is the bible a valid authority on this subject'

I'm going to make a demand that might infuriate the living hell out of you but it is my right to do so. This string had a title and a subject, stick to it and I'll answer you. keep running down rabbit trails and playing stupid butt atheist and I'll ignore you!

The internet is a wonderful place and we all hae the same rights and none are required to contend with intentional stupidity.

I am not trying for the title of Grand Pompous Ass but the simple truth is that as long as you never seek after God you will never be indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God and without God the Book is meant to be a mystery to you.

[undeterred]

You have interesting opinions and interpretations. Following are mine.

Now, as demonstrated in the study of God's Sovereignty, He is sovereign over the entire Earth and all of its happenings. At the same time, if we have studied the scriptures much at all we know that there is no evil in God for He is good and good and evil are opposites.

That means that everything that appears evil to us is actually good, because God is 'sovereign over the entire Earth and all of its happenings.' As such, we really have no way to distinguish evil from good.

A yearly read through the book of Job will give us a good reason...

...to realise that the whole thing is a fairy tale, in which Satan supposedly goads God into letting him kick the crap out of Job. That must have been a good day for El Diablo. I imagine before he went to see God that day he made a wager with one of his minions that he could get the big G to let him do it.

(We can use Job to) meditate upon in the matter of what God does and does not do as well as what God will permit outside of His perfect will (2Pet. 3:9.)

How does any being "permit something outside his will"? That's a bewildering tautology.

God uses everything that happens on the Earth to call lost men to repentance and salvation.

Except for the 99% of people in history who never even heard of him. Billions upon billions of "evil" acts were being perpetrated long before God was even invented.

Apart from that, God would seem to recruit a lot of unwilling hapless children and babies in his scheme to convert lost atheists. You should write some letters of thanks to all the victims’ families on God’s behalf.

In the end of it all, Job knew that God had and would always rescue him and Job's faith was multiplied when it was all said and done. And God did not leave Job in that condition but made him better off than he ever was before.

I hope someone asked Job's servants and children if they were okay with that. No doubt it would have been a great consolation to them as they were being disembowelled, or their skulls were being crushed by the debris of a falling house.

So, how does that relate to us today? I offer you a true life example. I went to Vietnam in June of 1966 and in September of that year I found my best friend after an eighty-one mm. mortar had exploded on his chest. Up to this point I was an alcoholic atheist but as I stood, cursing the God I refused to worship, He spoke to me. God said, “Why curse me, you don't even believe!�

You had an auditory hallucination. If you had been fighting for the Pharaohs in ancient Egypt you would have cursed Ra and heard from him instead.

Other “true life examples� include people who were commanded by God to kill their own children. In the Bible these people are called saints and prophets. In the present era such people are called mentally ill.

In any case, atheists don't curse God. It would be the same as cursing the Tooth Fairy. You clearly had some innate deistic belief, or you would have felt as stupid cursing God as if you had yelled “curse you, Tinkerbell!�

There is true evil in this world, I have seen it. I've held a 6 month old in my arms as it died of the gunshot wounds, that's evil!

Carried out by Satan, and permitted (if not decreed) by the sovereign God, all to save your soul.

How perverse.


The existence of evil only makes sense if God does not exist at all. The alternatives are...

a) God is infinitely benevolent but he is not omnipotent, or
b) God is omnipotent but he is not infinitely benevolent, or
c) God “permits things outside of his perfect will�.

That last one’s a beaut. Since it seems central to your claims, maybe you can explain it in ways which don’t cancel each other out.