God's Sovereignty

[th1bill]

There are over one hundred and twenty references to the sovereignty of God and the Naves Topical, under God>Sovereignty, lists them. The study is not a short/quick study. I have often seen the question published on the net, “Why Does God Permit Evil?� This is not an unreasonable question for any person, lost or saved, to ask. In my opinion it is a required subject for the Christian to learn to answer.

Now, as demonstrated in the study of God's Sovereignty, He is sovereign over the entire Earth and all of it's happenings. At the same time, if we have studied the scriptures much at all we know that there is no evil in God for He is good and good and evil are opposites. A yearly read through the book of Job will give us a good reason and material to meditate upon in the matter of what God does and does not do as well as what God will permit outside of His perfect will (2Pet. 3:9.) God uses everything that happens on the Earth to call lost men to repentance and salvation.

Job was a righteous man in everything he did and still, God permitted Satan to kill his children, destroy the fruits of his labor and to afflict him with horrible pain and suffering. What was God doing? God never allows Satan to afflict His saints unless there is Spiritual growth to be had. Job 19:1-12 shows us that Job thought God had done this to him but to Job's credit he refused to curse God (Job 2:9-10.)

In the end of it all, Job knew that God had and would always rescue him and Job's faith was multiplied when it was all said and done. And God did not leave Job in that condition but made him better off than he ever was before.

So, how does that relate to us today? I offer you a true life example. I went to Vietnam in June of 1966 and in September of that year I found my best friend after an eighty-one mm. mortar had exploded on his chest. Up to this point I was an alcoholic atheist but as I stood, cursing the God I refused to worship, He spoke to me. God said, “Why curse me, you don't even believe!� My lack of knowledge of the Spiritual life immediately changed. I wasn't a Christian, but for the next 23 years I was a seeker. I had become a Deist and was seeking the one true God.

Does God permit Satan to do evil? It's difficult to argue against the Bible since it is he very Word of God for His believers. God permitted an action that has influenced my life for the past 44 years and as a result of that I have learned that it is a terrible thing to be found, judged by God. I also learned that man is not as supreme as he wants to be but that instead that we are, all of us, in need of God and His mercy. In war I have seen, what is perhaps, a very small example of God's wrath. Am I saying my friend suffered God's wrath? Directly or indirectly, yes. So did I!

I know that the folks that teach, come to Christ and all your troubles end right there, are not teaching the truth o God's word. Have I been attacked by Satan since I converted and bowed my knee in submission? You can certainly believe I have. I am often guilty of upsetting the 'God is love crowd' by teaching the hard doctrines of God, because while it is so very true that God is love, there is so much more to understand about God. I have been serious about my study now for better than 19 years and what I have learned about God has opened the way to so very much more that I do not know and understand yet. I will study the rest of my life and yet I know that if I live another 65 years I will still be studying God, trying to know Him better and still not know everything about Him.

There is true evil in this world, I have seen it. I've held a 6 month old in my arms as it died of the gun shot wounds, that's evil! But out of it all, I have learned to never curse God but to move forward, just like the soldier the US Army trained, and to work toward God's perfect will as He opens and closes doors. God is good and as His soldiers, the Good War is our fight.

[WinePusher]

The existence of evil only makes sense if God does not exist at all. The alternatives are...

a) God is infinitely benevolent but he is not omnipotent, or
b) God is omnipotent but he is not infinitely benevolent, or
c) God “permits things outside of his perfect will�.

That last one’s a beaut. Since it seems central to your claims, maybe you can explain it in ways which don’t cancel each other out.

For points a & b to be true, you must prove that it is in the character of an omnibenevolent being to be of total intolerance of evil. If it is a neccesary trait of an omnibenevolent being to be intolerant of evil, then God is not omnipotent nor omnibenevolent. However, you have not proven this.

The best explanation for the possible co-existence of an omnibenevolent/omnipotent being and evil is that the omnibenevolent/omnipotent being permitts a free creature to commit acts of evil.

[undeterred]

The existence of evil only makes sense if God does not exist at all. The alternatives are...

a) God is infinitely benevolent but he is not omnipotent, or
b) God is omnipotent but he is not infinitely benevolent, or
c) God “permits things outside of his perfect will�.

For points a & b to be true, you must prove that it is in the character of an omnibenevolent being to be of total intolerance of evil.

What else would OMNI-benevolence entail? What do you think it means to be infinitely benevolent?

The best explanation for the possible co-existence of an omnibenevolent/omnipotent being and evil is that the omnibenevolent/omnipotent being permitts a free creature to commit acts of evil.

Creatures which are free to be evil have counterparts called victims. Your semi-quasi-kinda-sorta-not-quite-omni-benevolent omnipotent deity seems to reserve his favour for the right of the child killer to kill the child, and doesn't intervene when the child screams as she's being violated and brutalised.

That's not benevolence by any measure. That's pure evil.

My goodness, it's almost as if God doesn't exist at all, and bad things happen randomly with no rhyme or reason whatsoever!

[micatala]

Moderator Intervention

I'm going to make a demand that might infuriate the living hell out of you but it is my right to do so. This string had a title and a subject, stick to it and I'll answer you. keep running down rabbit trails and playing stupid butt atheist and I'll ignore you!

The internet is a wonderful place and we all hae the same rights and none are required to contend with intentional stupidity.

Please keep in mind personal attacks are against the rule.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6

You are free to ignore other posters, and the forum has an ignore feature for this. But do remain civil when replying to others.



Also, keep in mind there is a difference between the Christianity and Apologitics section of the forum and the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma section. In this thread, you seem to be arguing from a scriptural point of view assuming the authority of scripture. So this thread should really be in the Theology forum and I will move it there for further debate, leaving a shadow in C&A.

[McCulloch]

There are over one hundred and twenty references to the sovereignty of God and the Naves Topical, under God>Sovereignty, lists them. The study is not a short/quick study. I have often seen the question published on the net, “Why Does God Permit Evil?� This is not an unreasonable question for any person, lost or saved, to ask. In my opinion it is a required subject for the Christian to learn to answer.

I agree with you. This is an important topic, both for those who accept the teachings of Christianity and for those who challenge them.

Now, as demonstrated in the study of God's Sovereignty, He is sovereign over the entire Earth and all of it's happenings. At the same time, if we have studied the scriptures much at all we know that there is no evil in God for He is good and good and evil are opposites. A yearly read through the book of Job will give us a good reason and material to meditate upon in the matter of what God does and does not do as well as what God will permit outside of His perfect will (2Pet. 3:9.) God uses everything that happens on the Earth to call lost men to repentance and salvation.

The issue that you seem to avoid is how can anything happen outside of the will of an all powerful, all knowing being? If God uses everything that happens to call lost humans to repentance and salvation, why is he such a miserable failure?

So, how does that [the story of Job] relate to us today? I offer you a true life example. I went to Vietnam in June of 1966 and in September of that year I found my best friend after an eighty-one mm. mortar had exploded on his chest. Up to this point I was an alcoholic atheist but as I stood, cursing the God I refused to worship, He spoke to me. God said, “Why curse me, you don't even believe!�

The God of your imagination had a very valid point. If you could curse God for what happened, then you were not really an atheist as you claim.

My lack of knowledge of the Spiritual life immediately changed.

I also lack knowledge of things spiritual. How do you validate spiritual knowledge?

There is true evil in this world, I have seen it. I've held a 6 month old in my arms as it died of the gun shot wounds, that's evil! But out of it all, I have learned to never curse God but to move forward, just like the soldier the US Army trained, and to work toward God's perfect will as He opens and closes doors. God is good and as His soldiers, the Good War is our fight.

How is it that you conclude that God is good? This is the God, who in your own words, allowed a six month old to die, unredeemed.

I can't help thinking the "greatest evil" is perpetrated by Christians who use war and war terminology to support their cause.

I have learned to never curse God but to move forward, just like the soldier the US Army trained, and to work toward God's perfect will as He opens and closes doors. God is good and as His soldiers, the Good War is our fight.

Th1bill, are you one of those pretenders? How do you know?

Before that statement can ever be thought of in the vein of credibility the term or title Christian must be defined. If we go to the source we find that a Christian, biblically, is a person that has an ongoing or active, personal, relationship with Jesus.

I'm going to make a demand that might infuriate the living hell out of you but it is my right to do so. This string had a title and a subject, stick to it and I'll answer you. keep running down rabbit trails and playing stupid butt atheist and I'll ignore you!

The internet is a wonderful place and we all hae the same rights and none are required to contend with intentional stupidity.

Is it important to this debate what it means Biblically to be a Christian? If yes, then the discussion of what the Bible says on the topic is not a rabbit hole and needs to be explored. If no, then your own third post is off topic.

The simple truth is that as long as you never seek after God you will never be indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God and without God the Book is meant to be a mystery to you.

Is that an accurate statement of Christian doctrine? God inspired a book to be written in human language, but the book is so badly written that without direct intervention of the Holy Spirit in their lives, humans cannot understand it. The God you believe in is not just a mystery but an enigma.

[th1bill]

You have interesting opinions and interpretations. Following are mine.

Now, as demonstrated in the study of God's Sovereignty, He is sovereign over the entire Earth and all of its happenings. At the same time, if we have studied the scriptures much at all we know that there is no evil in God for He is good and good and evil are opposites.

That means that everything that appears evil to us is actually good, because God is 'sovereign over the entire Earth and all of its happenings.' As such, we really have no way to distinguish evil from good.

Considering that you have gone so far out of the context to draw this, completely, foolish conclusion, I should ignore you until you go back to school and learn about contextual implication.

A yearly read through the book of Job will give us a good reason...

...to realise(sp) that the whole thing is a fairy tale, in which Satan supposedly goads God into letting him kick the crap out of Job. That must have been a good day for El Diablo. I imagine before he went to see God that day he made a wager with one of his minions that he could get the big G to let him do it.

(We can use Job to) meditate upon in the matter of what God does and does not do as well as what God will permit outside of His perfect will (2Pet. 3:9.)

How does any being "permit something outside his will"? That's a bewildering tautology.

While you are attending basic reading skills classes you might persuade the instructor to guide you through the proper use and application of a dictionary.[/quote]

[micatala]

Moderator Intervention


Again, I'll ask Th1bill to consult the rules and keep in mind civil debate is one of the principle ethics of the forum. The following comments are not civil.

Considering that you have gone so far out of the context to draw this, completely, foolish conclusion, I should ignore you until you go back to school and learn about contextual implication.


While you are attending basic reading skills classes you might persuade the instructor to guide you through the proper use and application of a dictionary.

[undeterred]

Considering that you have gone so far out of the context to draw this, completely, foolish conclusion, I should ignore you until you go back to school and learn about contextual implication.

If I have ignored context it should be no problem for you to summarily outline my error, even if you do that only for the benefit of other readers. Demonstrating that I am a fool would be far more effective than just calling me one.

...realise(sp)...

As someone who claims to be intimately familiar with the internet, you should know that calling attention to typo's and spelling errors is considered extremely rude and irrelevant.

As an insular citizen of the U.S.A., though, there is no way anyone could expect you to know that people from Britain and Australia (to name but two) spell realise with an "s". If I was similarly ignorant, I myself might have thought that you left the "u" out of "labour" in your OP. But I guess it is also the custom in America (or SE Texas at least) to use an apostrophe in the possesive form of the pronoun "its".

While you are attending basic reading skills classes you might persuade the instructor to guide you through the proper use and application of a dictionary.

Yeah. Sorry I got a word wrong. Tautology. Oxymoron. Whatever. I guess you got me, and now my whole post is null and void.


Thank you for immediately resorting to personal insults and completely side-stepping any actual discussion. If it's beneath you to post refutations to any points people raise against you, then what on Earth are you doing here?

Enjoy your inevitably short time here on DC&R, anyway.