Israel Vs Palestine

[simpac]

I often here my friends debate about this topic, but until today, I knew literally nothing about it. So I've been doing some research and now I think I have a shady understanding of what happened. So I'd like to hear a debate about it to get a better understanding of the pro's and con's for each side.

From what I can tell, it's mostly my fault. (And by that i mean great Britain's fault). If you put a pack of lions in another pack's territory, they're going to go mental on each other. Which pack's fault would it be? Neither, it would be your fault for putting one pack in another pack's territory.

However, I don't think the blame can be only put on great Britain. The Israeli's moved willingly, knowing that it would cause trouble. Sure, they wanted a homeland, but I don't think they had any right to think that Israel belonged to them.

Having said that, Palestine over reacted, and if they wanted to start a war about it, they should've attacked Great Britain if anything.

I think most blame goes to Great Britain, then Palestinians, then the Israeli's.

What are your thoughts?

[cnorman18]

I don't think establishing blame is as important as finding a way to peace NOW.

For that, one thing and one thing only is necessary; a Palestinian leadership that is more interested in establishing their own homeland and living in peace with Israel than in murdering Jews and driving them all from the entire Middle East by any means necessary. At this moment, one side and one side only wants peace. The other side wants the total annihilation of their perceived enemies.

This isn't a matter of debate; it's a matter of fact on the public record, clearly stated in the charters of Hamas, Hizbollah and the PLO.

As is my wont, I have nothing more to say on the subject.

[JoeyKnothead]

I say long live Israel. They have continually offered peace, and the Palestinians have offered nothing but terror.

[simpac]

I don't think establishing blame is as important as finding a way to peace NOW.

Thats a good point

For that, one thing and one thing only is necessary; a Palestinian leadership that is more interested in establishing their own homeland and living in peace with Israel than in murdering Jews and driving them all from the entire Middle East by any means necessary. At this moment, one side and one side only wants peace. The other side wants the total annihilation of their perceived enemies.

Of course the Israeli's want peace, they've already got what they wanted. If Britain hadn't given them Israel, for all we know they could be invading Palestine right now. If Britain came along now and gave away part of Israel to another nation, then I'm sure the roles would be reversed and they'd be fighting to get their land back.

But I agree that the only viable solution, is for the Palestinians to change their attitude.

Forgive me if I have said anything inaccurate, I still don't know enough on the matter to really know what I'm talking about, but I have tried, nonetheless.

[East of Eden]

Israel is surrounded by genocidal maniacs. Here's a good summary of the situation:



Larry Miller on Israel:
November 26, 2002

"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a
service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the
story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you
really need.

Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing
about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel
was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan",
"Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention.
Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt,
and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was
owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then.

As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big
as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians,"
weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any
more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our
deaths until someone points out they're being taped.

Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't
Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves
In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I
know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this,
then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters".

Okay, so the adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops,
just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own
country any time in the last thirty years, especially, two years ago at
Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have
traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and,
worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living.
That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the
region want: Israel.

They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course--that's where the
real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel. Why?

For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as
their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers
of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away
from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest,
and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been
around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes
poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast.
Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to
the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for
that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five
million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and
Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now
these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of
matches, everyone will be pals.

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of
wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid
blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were
just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just
reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five
million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it.

Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and
dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber
and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State
into the sea? Nonsense.

Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.
Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking
their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst
Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that
with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our
interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as
possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a
roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of
losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11
our president told us and the world he was going to root out all
terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful.

Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the
equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every
day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show
restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day,
we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just
be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and
east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a
bad id . . .ooh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)"

[McCulloch]

Israel is surrounded by genocidal maniacs. Here's a good summary of the situation

Thank you for that nuanced and balanced perspective on the complex issues regarding the troubles in the Middle East. Might I suggest that you avoid ever seeking a career in the diplomatic corps.

[cnorman18]

Israel is surrounded by genocidal maniacs. Here's a good summary of the situation

Thank you for that nuanced and balanced perspective on the complex issues regarding the troubles in the Middle East. Might I suggest that you avoid ever seeking a career in the diplomatic corps.

I think I'd agree with you there, McC. My sympathies are of course with the Israelis, but the aspirations of the Palestinian people ought not be mocked and ignored. Pure polemic, which this was, doesn't often serve any useful purpose. Further, as I said earlier, how we got here and who is most to blame are no longer useful approaches. The significant question is, what do we do now?

Hatred from either side isn't going to help. PEACE will only happen when both sides begin to work together to build free, just and prosperous societies that can live together without rancor and even actually cooperate with each other for mutual benefit. The Jordanians and the Israelis have been working together on a joint desalinization project for years. THAT sort of thing is going to lead to peace, not this kind of overheated rhetoric.

Honestly, in the light of the continuing terrorist campaigns from Israel's neighbors, I understand the sentiments expressed here; but that doesn't justify the bloody-shirt-waving, even if there are many grains of truth in it. I have indulged in such in the past myself, and my contempt for those who plan and mount the mass murder of innocents knows no bounds; but the simple fact is, neither side is going to "win" this conflict by force. Cooperation and reconciliation are the only ways. It can happen; look at South Africa. Generational enemies are now working together to build a country.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

[East of Eden]

Israel is surrounded by genocidal maniacs. Here's a good summary of the situation

Thank you for that nuanced and balanced perspective on the complex issues regarding the troubles in the Middle East. Might I suggest that you avoid ever seeking a career in the diplomatic corps.

I think I'd agree with you there, McC. My sympathies are of course with the Israelis, but the aspirations of the Palestinian people ought not be mocked and ignored. Pure polemic, which this was, doesn't often serve any useful purpose. Further, as I said earlier, how we got here and who is most to blame are no longer useful approaches. The significant question is, what do we do now?

Hatred from either side isn't going to help. PEACE will only happen when both sides begin to work together to build free, just and prosperous societies that can live together without rancor and even actually cooperate with each other for mutual benefit. The Jordanians and the Israelis have been working together on a joint desalinization project for years. THAT sort of thing is going to lead to peace, not this kind of overheated rhetoric.

Honestly, in the light of the continuing terrorist campaigns from Israel's neighbors, I understand the sentiments expressed here; but that doesn't justify the bloody-shirt-waving, even if there are many grains of truth in it. I have indulged in such in the past myself, and my contempt for those who plan and mount the mass murder of innocents knows no bounds; but the simple fact is, neither side is going to "win" this conflict by force. Cooperation and reconciliation are the only ways. It can happen; look at South Africa. Generational enemies are now working together to build a country.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

What do you do when one side doesn't want peace? Arafat was offered everything and rejected it. They just want there not to be an Israel.

BTW, how is 'adjacent Jew-haters', for example, not an accurate description? Are they not adjacent, and do they not hate Jews?

[cnorman18]

Israel is surrounded by genocidal maniacs. Here's a good summary of the situation

Thank you for that nuanced and balanced perspective on the complex issues regarding the troubles in the Middle East. Might I suggest that you avoid ever seeking a career in the diplomatic corps.

I think I'd agree with you there, McC. My sympathies are of course with the Israelis, but the aspirations of the Palestinian people ought not be mocked and ignored. Pure polemic, which this was, doesn't often serve any useful purpose. Further, as I said earlier, how we got here and who is most to blame are no longer useful approaches. The significant question is, what do we do now?

Hatred from either side isn't going to help. PEACE will only happen when both sides begin to work together to build free, just and prosperous societies that can live together without rancor and even actually cooperate with each other for mutual benefit. The Jordanians and the Israelis have been working together on a joint desalinization project for years. THAT sort of thing is going to lead to peace, not this kind of overheated rhetoric.

Honestly, in the light of the continuing terrorist campaigns from Israel's neighbors, I understand the sentiments expressed here; but that doesn't justify the bloody-shirt-waving, even if there are many grains of truth in it. I have indulged in such in the past myself, and my contempt for those who plan and mount the mass murder of innocents knows no bounds; but the simple fact is, neither side is going to "win" this conflict by force. Cooperation and reconciliation are the only ways. It can happen; look at South Africa. Generational enemies are now working together to build a country.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

What do you do when one side doesn't want peace? Arafat was offered everything and rejected it. They just want there not to be an Israel.

Arafat's dead, and many more Arabs are becoming aware of his venality and corruption and his total disregard of the interests of the Palestinian people. There ARE Palestinians who want peace, and we should support those people and work and dialogue with them. Their numbers are growing, as more and more Arabs become aware that putting the destruction of Israel as their first priority is counterproductive to the success, security and prosperity of their own nations.

What is the alternative? Nuking Damascus and Tehran might be emotionally satisfying to those who hate Arabs as much as many Arabs hate Jews, but I doubt it'll solve the problems here. 5 million Jews aren't going to hand a conclusive military defeat to 500 million Arabs. Military preparedness and retaliation for atrocities are a given; I'm not advocating pacifism. But the real effort toward peace is going to come through cooperation, not heightening the conflict.

BTW, how is 'adjacent Jew-haters', for example, not an accurate description? Are they not adjacent, and do they not hate Jews?

I don't think I said that it wasn't accurate; to a large degree, it is. But:

Not all the Jew-haters are adjacent to Israel (Iran shares no border with Israel, e.g.); and not all of Israel's neighbors hate Jews. That characterization has some truth in it, as I said - Arab culture and governments do tend to encourage the most vicious kind of Nazi-style antisemitism, which isn't usually acknowledged by those who comment on the conflict - but it's just as unfair a blanket generalization as "Southern bigots." Not all Southerners are bigots (I'm not, for starters), and it's neither productive nor accurate to paint with that broad a brush. How do we make progress with the Palestinians who DO want peace if we refuse to recognize that there are any?

[East of Eden]

Arafat's dead, and many more Arabs are becoming aware of his venality and corruption and his total disregard of the interests of the Palestinian people. There ARE Palestinians who want peace, and we should support those people and work and dialogue with them. Their numbers are growing, as more and more Arabs become aware that putting the destruction of Israel as their first priority is counterproductive to the success, security and prosperity of their own nations.

Let's hope you're right. This issue isn't just a Palestinian/Israeli one; you have to look at the worldwide surge in radical Islam, which in the Mideast has made not just Jews it's victims but Christians who formerly were able to live together peacefully with Muslims. The newly ascendant radicals don't tolerate us infidels, and in their antagonism towards the Jews are simply following the word and deed of the 'prophet'.

They will never accept Israeli control of the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jersalem.

What is the alternative? Nuking Damascus and Tehran might be emotionally satisfying to those who hate Arabs as much as many Arabs hate Jews, but I doubt it'll solve the problems here. 5 million Jews aren't going to hand a conclusive military defeat to 500 million Arabs. Military preparedness and retaliation for atrocities are a given; I'm not advocating pacifism. But the real effort toward peace is going to come through cooperation, not heightening the conflict.

Nobody is advocating nuking anyone, except for Iran. At the very least we must firmly stand up to bullies and tyrants. The only language they understand is force. Throughout history radical Islam has never been stopped by anything else.

I honestly don't think there will be a 'solution', short of the Second Coming. I don't believe in the perfectability of fallen man. For some situations there is no solution, they must be coped with.

I don't think I said that it wasn't accurate; to a large degree, it is. But:

Not all the Jew-haters are adjacent to Israel (Iran shares no border with Israel, e.g.); and not all of Israel's neighbors hate Jews.

My original article post was referring to the Palestinians.

That characterization has some truth in it, as I said - Arab culture and governments do tend to encourage the most vicious kind of Nazi-style antisemitism, which isn't usually acknowledged by those who comment on the conflict

Anti-Jewish sentiment is part and parcel of much of Islam, begun by the word and deed of the 'prophet', as I said above. Muslim schoolchildren are indoctrinated with this hate.

"Youngsters throughout the Arab and Muslim world are taught -- in their homes, schools, and mosques -- to detest Jews and to view them as uniformly evil. The contents of the textbooks used in Palestinian Authority (PA) schools are vital components of this practice. The PA began publishing its own textbooks in 2000, to replace the Jordanian and Egyptian texts that had been used in its schools since its inception in 1993. But these PA books were replete with a great deal of objectionable material, including extremely derogatory references to the Jewish people, assertions that Israel had no legitimate right to exist, and calls for violent jihad to "liberate" Palestinians from their Jewish oppressors.

Purportedly as a gesture of good faith and conciliation, PA President Mahmoud Abbas agreed to have such items excised from the texts -- a task he said would be completed in time for the start of the 2006-07 school year. But a major 2006 study -- commissioned by the Israel-based Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (an agency that had been consistently supportive of the Oslo Peace Process) -- found that scarcely any of the anti-Semitic references had actually been removed from the texts. The researchers found, for example, that in these "revised" books:

1) Israel does not appear on any maps of the world, while maps of Israel substitute the name "Palestine" in place of "Israel." All Jewish holy places in the country are presented as purely Islamic sites. Israeli cities, such as Haifa, are referred to as Arab cities. One 5th grade text, for instance, states that "Haifa is a Palestinian seaport." Similarly, a 10th grade publication says that "Galilee, Nazareth and Beit She'an are regions in Palestine."

2) Jews, Israel, and Zionism are depicted as the treacherous, murderous enemies of the Palestinian people. For example, a 10th grade text titled Our Beautiful Language says: "There is no doubt that the Israeli occupation has a negative impact on [Palestinian] agriculture and its export." According to a 5th grade text: "The Palestinian people are under an oppressive siege, limiting their movement and way of life." Yet another 5th grade book says: "The Palestinian family has problems ... stemming from the occupation ... t loses father, mother or son to death or imprisonment ... [and] endures the difficulties of life." In an 8th grade text, we find: “Your [Jewish] enemies kill your children, split open women’s bellies.�

3) It is falsely claimed that an "extremist Zionist" set fire to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in 1969, when in fact the culprit was a mentally unstable Christian Australian.

4) It is asserted that the only ancient inhabitants of Israel were Arabs; the ancient Jewish presence in the region is ignored. A 5th grade text titled History of Ancient Civilizations says: "Concentrated ... in the land of Al-Sham [Greater Syria] ... was the culture of the Canaanite and Aramaic peoples who migrated there from the Arab peninsula."

5) Schoolchildren are taught that they are obliged to wage violent jihad in order to serve Allah properly. One 5th grade text extols a heroic Palestinian mother "who incessantly presents one sacrifice [fida'] after another" -- a reference to her numerous sons, all of whom willingly become martyrs for the sake of their religion. Another 5th grade text says: "The fighter goes to battle with two happy ends in front of him -- either victory or martyrdom." A 10th grade book states: "Allah gave the people of this land ... an important task: they must stand on the forefront of the Muslim campaign against their enemies." A 7th grade text features a poem titled "The Martyr," which says: "Hearing [weapons'] clash is pleasant to my ear, and the flow of blood gladdens my soul." And an 8th grade text informs its readers: "Your enemies seek life and you seek death... These drops of blood that flow from your bodies will be transformed into red fiery shooting stars that will come down on the heads of your enemies."

6) Children with names such as Jihad (Holy War) and Nidal (Struggle) are the featured characters in many stories.

7) Great emphasis is placed on the importance of the Arab "right of return" to "Palestine." One 5th grade text describes the people "returning to the homes, the plains and the mountains, under the banners of glory, jihad, and struggle."

Apart from what they read in their schoolbooks, Palestinian children also learn anti-Semitism from such popular publications as the Hamas children's magazine Al-Fateh. This periodical commonly features stories and poems that glorify jihad and terrorist operations against Jews, who are depicted as "murderers of the prophets." The magazine's titular character, Al-Fateh ("The Conqueror") is a boy who rides his horse while brandishing a drawn sword.

Moreover, Palestinian children are heavily influenced by what they see on television. For example, the official Hamas station, Al-Aqsa TV, uses a clone of Disney’s Mickey Mouse to teach young viewers not only that they should despise Jews and Israel, but also that they must advance the global jihad by any means necessary. The squeaky-voiced mouse, named Farfur, refers to Israel as “the oppressive invading Zionist occupation,� which the children must "resist" by means of armed struggle.

Adapted from "Texts of Hate," by Arlene Kushner (March 13, 2008); "Erasing Israel, by David Bedein (September 26, 2006); "Hamas Children's Magazine," by C. Jacob (October 9, 2007); and "Hamas Steals Mickey Mouse Image to Teach Hate and Islamic Supremacy,"
by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook (May 6, 2007).

- but it's just as unfair a blanket generalization as "Southern bigots." Not all Southerners are bigots (I'm not, for starters), and it's neither productive nor accurate to paint with that broad a brush. How do we make progress with the Palestinians who DO want peace if we refuse to recognize that there are any?

I never said they're aren't any, but they certainly aren't in control.