Israel Vs Palestine

[simpac]

I often here my friends debate about this topic, but until today, I knew literally nothing about it. So I've been doing some research and now I think I have a shady understanding of what happened. So I'd like to hear a debate about it to get a better understanding of the pro's and con's for each side.

From what I can tell, it's mostly my fault. (And by that i mean great Britain's fault). If you put a pack of lions in another pack's territory, they're going to go mental on each other. Which pack's fault would it be? Neither, it would be your fault for putting one pack in another pack's territory.

However, I don't think the blame can be only put on great Britain. The Israeli's moved willingly, knowing that it would cause trouble. Sure, they wanted a homeland, but I don't think they had any right to think that Israel belonged to them.

Having said that, Palestine over reacted, and if they wanted to start a war about it, they should've attacked Great Britain if anything.

I think most blame goes to Great Britain, then Palestinians, then the Israeli's.

What are your thoughts?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 10:

Let's hope you're right. This issue isn't just a Palestinian/Israeli one; you have to look at the worldwide surge in radical Islam, which in the Mideast has made not just Jews it's victims but Christians who formerly were able to live together peacefully with Muslims. The newly ascendant radicals don't tolerate us infidels, and in their antagonism towards the Jews are simply following the word and deed of the 'prophet'.

Not to mention their fellow Muslims who also die, whether as (indoctrinated) suicide bombers or as innocents.

They will never accept Israeli control of the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jersalem.

I don't really know much about that mosque, but I would just about bet the Jews wouldn't too much sweat* it being treated like some Berlin situation, where Arabs retain control. *Sweat it as in for real peace.

Nobody is advocating nuking anyone, except for Iran. At the very least we must firmly stand up to bullies and tyrants. The only language they understand is force. Throughout history radical Islam has never been stopped by anything else.

I honestly don't think there will be a 'solution', short of the Second Coming. I don't believe in the perfectability of fallen man. For some situations there is no solution, they must be coped with.

I think East of Eden would agree we still hold out hope for a solution and don't just dig our heels in expecting it to come without effort.

>snip<

Anti-Jewish sentiment is part and parcel of much of Islam, begun by the word and deed of the 'prophet', as I said above. Muslim schoolchildren are indoctrinated with this hate.

"Youngsters throughout the Arab and Muslim world are taught -- in their homes, schools, and mosques -- to detest Jews and to view them as uniformly evil. The contents of the textbooks used in Palestinian Authority (PA) schools are vital components of this practice. The PA began publishing its own textbooks in 2000, to replace the Jordanian and Egyptian texts that had been used in its schools since its inception in 1993. But these PA books were replete with a great deal of objectionable material, including extremely derogatory references to the Jewish people, assertions that Israel had no legitimate right to exist, and calls for violent jihad to "liberate" Palestinians from their Jewish oppressors.

Purportedly as a gesture of good faith and conciliation, PA President Mahmoud Abbas agreed to have such items excised from the texts -- a task he said would be completed in time for the start of the 2006-07 school year. But a major 2006 study -- commissioned by the Israel-based Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (an agency that had been consistently supportive of the Oslo Peace Process) -- found that scarcely any of the anti-Semitic references had actually been removed from the texts. The researchers found, for example, that in these "revised" books:

1) Israel does not appear on any maps of the world, while maps of Israel substitute the name "Palestine" in place of "Israel." All Jewish holy places in the country are presented as purely Islamic sites. Israeli cities, such as Haifa, are referred to as Arab cities. One 5th grade text, for instance, states that "Haifa is a Palestinian seaport." Similarly, a 10th grade publication says that "Galilee, Nazareth and Beit She'an are regions in Palestine."

2) Jews, Israel, and Zionism are depicted as the treacherous, murderous enemies of the Palestinian people. For example, a 10th grade text titled Our Beautiful Language says: "There is no doubt that the Israeli occupation has a negative impact on [Palestinian] agriculture and its export." According to a 5th grade text: "The Palestinian people are under an oppressive siege, limiting their movement and way of life." Yet another 5th grade book says: "The Palestinian family has problems ... stemming from the occupation ... t loses father, mother or son to death or imprisonment ... [and] endures the difficulties of life." In an 8th grade text, we find: “Your [Jewish] enemies kill your children, split open women’s bellies.�

3) It is falsely claimed that an "extremist Zionist" set fire to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in 1969, when in fact the culprit was a mentally unstable Christian Australian.

4) It is asserted that the only ancient inhabitants of Israel were Arabs; the ancient Jewish presence in the region is ignored. A 5th grade text titled History of Ancient Civilizations says: "Concentrated ... in the land of Al-Sham [Greater Syria] ... was the culture of the Canaanite and Aramaic peoples who migrated there from the Arab peninsula."

5) Schoolchildren are taught that they are obliged to wage violent jihad in order to serve Allah properly. One 5th grade text extols a heroic Palestinian mother "who incessantly presents one sacrifice [fida'] after another" -- a reference to her numerous sons, all of whom willingly become martyrs for the sake of their religion. Another 5th grade text says: "The fighter goes to battle with two happy ends in front of him -- either victory or martyrdom." A 10th grade book states: "Allah gave the people of this land ... an important task: they must stand on the forefront of the Muslim campaign against their enemies." A 7th grade text features a poem titled "The Martyr," which says: "Hearing [weapons'] clash is pleasant to my ear, and the flow of blood gladdens my soul." And an 8th grade text informs its readers: "Your enemies seek life and you seek death... These drops of blood that flow from your bodies will be transformed into red fiery shooting stars that will come down on the heads of your enemies."

6) Children with names such as Jihad (Holy War) and Nidal (Struggle) are the featured characters in many stories.

7) Great emphasis is placed on the importance of the Arab "right of return" to "Palestine." One 5th grade text describes the people "returning to the homes, the plains and the mountains, under the banners of glory, jihad, and struggle."

Apart from what they read in their schoolbooks, Palestinian children also learn anti-Semitism from such popular publications as the Hamas children's magazine Al-Fateh. This periodical commonly features stories and poems that glorify jihad and terrorist operations against Jews, who are depicted as "murderers of the prophets." The magazine's titular character, Al-Fateh ("The Conqueror") is a boy who rides his horse while brandishing a drawn sword.

Moreover, Palestinian children are heavily influenced by what they see on television. For example, the official Hamas station, Al-Aqsa TV, uses a clone of Disney’s Mickey Mouse to teach young viewers not only that they should despise Jews and Israel, but also that they must advance the global jihad by any means necessary. The squeaky-voiced mouse, named Farfur, refers to Israel as “the oppressive invading Zionist occupation,� which the children must "resist" by means of armed struggle.

Adapted from "Texts of Hate," by Arlene Kushner (March 13, 2008); "Erasing Israel, by David Bedein (September 26, 2006); "Hamas Children's Magazine," by C. Jacob (October 9, 2007); and "Hamas Steals Mickey Mouse Image to Teach Hate and Islamic Supremacy,"
by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook (May 6, 2007).

I include that entire section in an effort to ensure it gets more "eyes" on it.

>snip<

I'm refreshed to see that as much as East of Eden and I carry on, we still have this very important issue (among some others I've noticed) in common.

If there's a God up there, I hope He blesses at least the Jews with longevity and an eventual lasting security.

[cnorman18]

Just a few quick remarks:

I was well aware of the material about institutional antisemitism in the Arab world, and much more than the bit you posted. E.g., the King of Saudi Arabia routinely hands out copies of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion to guests, and that execrable book is a perennial bestseller in the Arab/Muslim world. The ritual murder of Muslim children by grinning rabbis, in order to drain their blood for Passover matzoh, was dramatized in a Tv miniseries that played all over the Mideast, and was an enormous hit with huge ratings. It is widely believed among Arabs that 9/11 was carried out by the Mossad, and that the Holocaust never happened; these views and others are promoted by Arab and Muslim leaders and commentators, and this has been true for decades. It dates back long before 1947; Arab mobs whipped up by the Mufti of Jerusalem, the Muslim leader at the time, massacred hundreds of Jews in what is now Israel in the late 19th century. The idea that the hatred of Jews among the Arabs is something new that is motivated by the "occupation" is nonsense. The PLO was founded when the West Bank was still part of Jordan and the Gaza Strip was still Egyptian territory. And so on.

All that is true. But still, the only hope for peace remains in reaching out to moderate Arabs and Muslims who are as sick of war and death as the Israelis, and to encourage them to take their countries and their religion back. At one time, Jews and Muslims lived together in peace; that was 800 years ago. But we can do it again. It may not happen in this generation, or the next; but it can happen.

What is certain is that FORCE isn't going to solve this conflict.

Another note; the Al-Aqsa Mosque is under Israeli control now; the Israelis could quite legally blow it up, raze it to the bare rock, and begin construction on the Third Temple tomorrow. But, as a gesture of peace and reconciliation, the Israelis have ceded day-to-day control of the Temple Mount to the Muslim authorities. This, in spite of the fact that when Arabs were in charge of Jerusalem, the Kotel - the Western Wall, the holiest spot on Earth to Jews - access to it was forbidden to Jews, and it was quite deliberately made into a garbage dump and a public open-air toilet. The difference in administration is rather striking.

In Israel, there are camps and schools specifically designated to give Jewish children and Arab children the opportunity to learn and play together; much good will and many friendships result from such efforts, and there is much more hope for eventual peace in that direction than in emphasizing hatred, or in spotlighting the hatred from the other side.

Strong defense; unfortunately but necessarily harsh security measures; and continuing efforts to find partners for peace. The Israelis have stuck with that approach for decades, and it is my hope, and that of most if not all Jews in the world, that it will eventually lead to peace.

[East of Eden]

I think East of Eden would agree we still hold out hope for a solution and don't just dig our heels in expecting it to come without effort.

I'm not saying don't try, but I'm not holding my breath. I guarantee you however long Obama is in office he won't get peace there, and it won't be his fault.

I'm refreshed to see that as much as East of Eden and I carry on, we still have this very important issue (among some others I've noticed) in common.

As I've said, we infidels have to stick together.

If there's a God up there, I hope He blesses at least the Jews with longevity and an eventual lasting security.

We can only hope. Kind of amazing they're still around this long, with what they've suffered.

[East of Eden]

Another note; the Al-Aqsa Mosque is under Israeli control now; the Israelis could quite legally blow it up, raze it to the bare rock, and begin construction on the Third Temple tomorrow. But, as a gesture of peace and reconciliation, the Israelis have ceded day-to-day control of the Temple Mount to the Muslim authorities. This, in spite of the fact that when Arabs were in charge of Jerusalem, the Kotel - the Western Wall, the holiest spot on Earth to Jews - access to it was forbidden to Jews, and it was quite deliberately made into a garbage dump and a public open-air toilet. The difference in administration is rather striking.

Similarly when Arabs were excavating near the OT Temple site they hauled tons of dirt off to the dump rather than let archeologists sift for artifacts, which would have given more credence to Israel's long-term presence there.

[East of Eden]

The Palestinian dispute with Israel is not territorial, it is existential.

[DeBunkem]

As the rest of the world besides the US has repeatedly acknowledged through repeated UN Resolutions, Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, and Sharon even admitted it. Gaza is a Warsaw-style ghetto suffering a slow genocide by Zionist terrorists. To equate the vanishingly few casualties of home-made rocket attacks with the deliberate massacres of Palestinians and Lebanese with heavy artillery and Apache attacks is so ridiculous it is beyond contemptible. Time for US to take off the AIPAC blinders and stop sending $3 BILLION a year to a rogue apartheid entity.

[DeBunkem]

Another note; the Al-Aqsa Mosque is under Israeli control now; the Israelis could quite legally blow it up, raze it to the bare rock, and begin construction on the Third Temple tomorrow. But, as a gesture of peace and reconciliation, the Israelis have ceded day-to-day control of the Temple Mount to the Muslim authorities. This, in spite of the fact that when Arabs were in charge of Jerusalem, the Kotel - the Western Wall, the holiest spot on Earth to Jews - access to it was forbidden to Jews, and it was quite deliberately made into a garbage dump and a public open-air toilet. The difference in administration is rather striking.

Similarly when Arabs were excavating near the OT Temple site they hauled tons of dirt off to the dump rather than let archeologists sift for artifacts, which would have given more credence to Israel's long-term presence there.

Human habitation of Palestine goes back to the Stone Age. According to their own unpopular prophets, the Hebrews lost the right to the land because they failed to keep the Law. Thus they were "vomited out." Bible's words, not mine.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 16:

As the rest of the world besides the US has repeatedly acknowledged through repeated UN Resolutions, Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, and Sharon even admitted it.

I think it is perfectly acceptable that a nation defend itself, and occupying lands from which bombs are being lobbed is part of that effort.

The US has no moral standing telling Israel what to do while we are in Iraq.

Gaza is a Warsaw-style ghetto suffering a slow genocide by Zionist terrorists.

If the folks in Gaza would quit trying to bomb Israelis, they may have a case.

To equate the vanishingly few casualties of home-made rocket attacks with the deliberate massacres of Palestinians and Lebanese with heavy artillery and Apache attacks is so ridiculous it is beyond contemptible.

I make no distinction between the quality, quantity, or killing ability, but consider the attempts.

I would dare say if the Arabs in Gaza had greater weapons they'd use them.

Time for US to take off the AIPAC blinders and stop sending $3 BILLION a year to a rogue apartheid entity.

Israel is a legitimate UN nation and as such has every right in the world to defend itself.
----------------------------------------

From Post 17:

Human habitation of Palestine goes back to the Stone Age. According to their own unpopular prophets, the Hebrews lost the right to the land because they failed to keep the Law. Thus they were "vomited out." Bible's words, not mine.

I don't consider religious texts to supersede the UN.

[DeBunkem]

From Post 16:

As the rest of the world besides the US has repeatedly acknowledged through repeated UN Resolutions, Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, and Sharon even admitted it.

I think it is perfectly acceptable that a nation defend itself, and occupying lands from which bombs are being lobbed is part of that effort.

The US has no moral standing telling Israel what to do while we are in Iraq.

Gaza is a Warsaw-style ghetto suffering a slow genocide by Zionist terrorists.

If the folks in Gaza would quit trying to bomb Israelis, they may have a case.

To equate the vanishingly few casualties of home-made rocket attacks with the deliberate massacres of Palestinians and Lebanese with heavy artillery and Apache attacks is so ridiculous it is beyond contemptible.

I make no distinction between the quality, quantity, or killing ability, but consider the attempts.

I would dare say if the Arabs in Gaza had greater weapons they'd use them.

Time for US to take off the AIPAC blinders and stop sending $3 BILLION a year to a rogue apartheid entity.

Israel is a legitimate UN nation and as such has every right in the world to defend itself.
----------------------------------------

From Post 17:

Human habitation of Palestine goes back to the Stone Age. According to their own unpopular prophets, the Hebrews lost the right to the land because they failed to keep the Law. Thus they were "vomited out." Bible's words, not mine.

I don't consider religious texts to supersede the UN.

Neither do I, which means we both agree Israel should withdraw behind the Green Zone. Everything you say has even more force for the Palestinians, whose country has been under Occupation. Occupation forces have no such right...they are to "get out." Forcing punishment upon an entire population; "community responsibility" has been condemned as a war crime since WWII, when Resistance attacks on the Germans were met with killings of villagers nearest the attacks. Dropping cluster bombs and white phosphorus on Palestinian families is also a war crime. Most of the world finds it very strange indeed that the US helps to crush an essentially defenseless people with space-age technology and apartheid repression. Israel even attacked our forces and killed dozens on the USS Liberty, with no accountability. Why is this rogue apartheid scofflaw entity "sacrosanct" here?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 19:

Neither do I, which means we both agree Israel should withdraw behind the Green Zone.

I disagree. Israel should do that which keeps her safe from terrorists.

Everything you say has even more force for the Palestinians, whose country has been under Occupation.

Not when they don't accept the UN sanctioned Israel as a nation. And certainly not when they are lobbing bombs into Israel.

Occupation forces have no such right...they are to "get out." Forcing punishment upon an entire population; "community responsibility" has been condemned as a war crime since WWII, when Resistance attacks on the Germans were met with killings of villagers nearest the attacks. Dropping cluster bombs and white phosphorus on Palestinian families is also a war crime.

As I keep saying, Israel has a right to defend herself, come heck or high water. When combatants hide amongst a civilian population they are responsible for civilian casualties.

Most of the world finds it very strange indeed that the US helps to crush an essentially defenseless people with space-age technology and apartheid repression.

I've never felt bound to the majority opinion. Yours is an argumentum ad populum.

Israel even attacked our forces and killed dozens on the USS Liberty, with no accountability. Why is this rogue apartheid scofflaw entity "sacrosanct" here?

If found guilty of crimes against the USS Liberty, we should hold the Israelis accountable. That no further punishment has been dealt indicates those who examined the incident found no such criminal liability.

I consider the referenced image as biased, in that it doesn't show almost the entire Arab world aligned against Israel. Such biased displays do nothing to further understanding, but do much to paint Israel as an aggressor against those who've vowed its complete annihilation. Shame on you.