Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

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The Persnickety Platypus
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Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

Post #1

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Split from the Pat Robertson thread...



He is a public figure making good money with his insane rantings.


And feeding and clothing the poor.
Which is would explain his opposition to Chavez, a man who (*gasp*) uses his country's massive oil profits to support the needy!

Doubling the Venezualan weekly minimum wage?!?! We Christians cannot stand for this abomination!

Put good old Hugo in charge of Pat's profits. Poverty would be abolished overnight.




But seriously, we all know the real reason Robertson despises Chavez. Don't pretend you don't. All that precious oil money could be going to US corporations, who would be further equipted to continue their highly successful plight of screwing over the American people. Don't let his preaching of "moral values" fool you, all any true Right-Winger wants is to further fatten our friendly American corporate overlord's wallets.
So, why don't the Bush Administration and the right-wing extremists and religious fanatics in the U.S. like Hugo Chavez? Venezuela, after all, supplies the U.S. with 12 per cent of its imported oil and sits on top of the eighth largest known oil field in the world.

Oil is the problem — not that Venezuela has it, but what Hugo Chavez does with it. Rather than gratuitously fatten the profit margins of the international oil companies, the Venezuelan government under Chavez extracts higher taxes and fees from those companies, and plows that money back into the people of Venezuela. He facilitates the formation of grassroots organizations and worker cooperatives amongst Venezuela's poor.


He has increased the minimum wage from about $25 per week to about $40 per week, and raised personal income taxes up to a rate of 10-15 per cent. He has established food programs to feed the poor and traded oil to Cuba for doctors and teachers who provide free health care to the poor and enhanced educational opportunities. He has used oil wealth to increase public works in order to provide more jobs for Venezuelans.

Imagine, using national resources to improve the national society and raise living standards for the poorest citizens. Imagine increasing access to education, health care and affordable food. It flies in the face of modern, corporate capitalism and the demand for ever lower costs for resources and labour.

And, as far as the U.S. and its corporate sponsors are concerned, it sets a bad example for the rest of Latin America. Imagine if Chavez's programs of redirecting wealth to the people of the countries where it is produced rather than letting it be sucked out by foreign investors should catch on. That is the other part of the problem.

Chavez has named his political and social philosophy Bolivarianism and is pursuing a Bolivarian Revolution, not just for Venezuela but for most of South America. The name comes from that of Simon Bolivar who liberated what are now Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Columbia and Venezuela from Spain in the early 19th Century. In this century Chavez is providing support to populist movements in neighbouring countries, a move clearly designed to spread his Bolivarian philosophy throughout the South American continent.

He is making oil deals with Brazil and Argentina and advocating Latin American military and trade alliances to challenge the power of the U.S. in the region. Venezuela, too, is the major partner in a Latin American satellite television network, Telesur, along with Argentina, Cuba and Uruguay, which will provide a counter point to the messages broadcast to South America by U.S. networks like CNN.

Chavez is plainly becoming a regional leader in an area long dominated by U.S. influence and interference. Like Simon Bolivar before him, who challenged the rule of the Spanish, Chavez has become a challenge in the region to the power of the United States.
As you can see, a truly evil man.
Last edited by The Persnickety Platypus on Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #91

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Yes. I mean the poor workforce enslaving the American poor by providing cocaine to the poorest neighborhoods in America. DC, New York, LA, Chicago, and other Democrat voting inner-cities. Odd hypocrisy here.
And the logic here is.... that drugs make people poor?
The drug runners of the world are rejoicing tonight. The ones getting filthy rich running drugs that is. The coca farmers still, live in squalor.
And would live in even deeper poverty were it not for the runners who distribute their product.

Now, lets imagine that, hypothetically, America is a drug friendly nation. Bolivian farmers (and others who rely on the coco crop) would have a much more accessible market for their yield, demand would increase, and prices would skyrocket. No more poverty.

The thing that you don't get is, American lawmakers would jump at the chance to make drugs legal. Think of the tax revenue. Problem is, voters in America love a "tough on crime" mentality in their candidates. Should a politician make even the vaguest notion at decreasing drug enforcement, he would litterally meet an angry conservative mob outside his office door the very next morning.

But that's okay, because the government has their own creative ways of making drug money. 2 million Americans are currently incarcerated in the prison system of the US. By fining the inmates, utilizing them for some economic use, or taxing us commonfolk in the name of "prison upkeep", the government collects a hefty profit (which is often used to conduct secret political wars in places like Venezuela and Nicaragua, both who reverted from elitist dictatorial rule to a fair and stable socialism... which naturally, our "compassionate" government will always make every effort to abolish!).

All research and successful drug policy show that law enforcement should be DECREASED, treatment INCREASED, and mandatory minimum sentences ABOLISHED. But of course, you "educated" voters don't seem to care much for proven statistics. Fact is, the violent crime rate in the US could be cut in half by simply laxing drug laws, which is proven everyday in the European socialist nations who have chosen this course of action.

People will do drugs whether it is illegal or not. The government knows this, and takes full advantage of it.

Still don't see the hypocrisy? Then please, explain to me why ALCOHOL is legal, and reefer isn't. Is one more dangerous than the other? Of course not. So what is the difference?

We can tax alcohol.

The prohibition was a complete disaster. It does not take a criminal justice expert to figure out that a ban on drugs will be just as ineffective.

Teen drug use higher in US than in Europe

America bans drugs. Europe encourages them. Does anyone else see a problem here?

The government does not want to abolish drugs. The more druggies in prison, the more money we have for oil wars.

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Post #92

Post by 1John2_26 »

America bans drugs. Europe encourages them. Does anyone else see a problem here?
Only a compassionate person.

Stringing out human beings on drugs and supplying them drugs so they can stay addicted and out of public nuisance is unimaginably inhumane.

But, in a society where the old and feeble are finished off and abortions are as easy a taking a pill the next morning, one can hardly lose the callousness of a society that chooses to inebriate its human being drug addicts rather than "saying no."

Socialism is anything but civil.
And the logic here is.... that drugs make people poor?


Drugs make people enslaved and addicted on drugs or dead. But was does Darwinism care about that?
And would live in even deeper poverty were it not for the runners who distribute their product.

Now, lets imagine that, hypothetically, America is a drug friendly nation. Bolivian farmers (and others who rely on the coco crop) would have a much more accessible market for their yield, demand would increase, and prices would skyrocket. No more poverty.
I read this over many times. It seems to be that you are advocating addciting people on drugs so that socialist bolivian drug growers can live better? And hoping demand for drugs "grows" into a "demand increase."

The concern that conservatives have for the logic and morality of socialism is well placed.

How nice to create drug addicts and keep them strug out for a lifetime.
The thing that you don't get is, American lawmakers would jump at the chance to make drugs legal. Think of the tax revenue. Problem is, voters in America love a "tough on crime" mentality in their candidates. Should a politician make even the vaguest notion at decreasing drug enforcement, he would litterally meet an angry conservative mob outside his office door the very next morning.
What you are not getting is that American parents do not want their children strung out on drugs.
But that's okay, because the government has their own creative ways of making drug money. 2 million Americans are currently incarcerated in the prison system of the US. By fining the inmates, utilizing them for some economic use, or taxing us commonfolk in the name of "prison upkeep", the government collects a hefty profit (which is often used to conduct secret political wars in places like Venezuela and Nicaragua, both who reverted from elitist dictatorial rule to a fair and stable socialism... which naturally, our "compassionate" government will always make every effort to abolish!).
You may want to look into what the leftist American organization, Americans United for Seperation of Church and State (an undercover hate group) is doing against Prison Fellowship? This Christian organization is being attacked by the leftists and the literally help those in prison. BUT, not to stay on drugs, legal or illicit. Probably why the left has to silence PF.

Interesting, if socialists took over power of America, they would do it by using the Constitution and then they would dismantle the Constitution as soon as they had the power to do so. Probably expel missionary groups. Hey, wait a minute, they're already doing that.

I would like to see something of socialist views as acceptable but it means sacrificing too much human decency.

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Post #93

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Drugs make people enslaved and addicted on drugs or dead.
Stringing out human beings on drugs and supplying them drugs so they can stay addicted and out of public nuisance is unimaginably inhumane.
You don't get it.

Europe is not encouraging drugs. They have merely chosen a more lax, more effective system through which to control them.

America bans drugs. Europe allows them.
American teens use lots of drugs. European teens use considerably less.

Do I need to draw a picture?
What you are not getting is that American parents do not want their children strung out on drugs.
Which is why they should be advocating a more lax enforcement system.

America has the most strict laws on crime amoung all industrialized countries. We also have the highest homicide and drug abuse rates.

Are our politicians honestly that stupid?

Of course not, they know exactly what they are doing. Following the rights movements, drugs magically became available for all the little kiddies. The percentage of Americans in the prison system has doubled since 1985. How convenient.
I read this over many times. It seems to be that you are advocating addciting people on drugs so that socialist bolivian drug growers can live better? And hoping demand for drugs "grows" into a "demand increase."
Addicting people on drugs? A little late for that, don't you think?

Half of America's youth are clamoring for methods to alter their consciousness (occasionally myself included). And guess what? They usually always get what they are looking for.

But at what cost? Do America's insane crime rates not speak for themselves? People will do anything to beat the anti-drug system, murder included. Recently, smugglers in New York were caught injecting puppies with illegal substances in order to sneak them onto the market.

The demand for drugs could not get any higher, and niether could their usage.

However, by lifting regulations, a free trade system could be established between the US and South American exporters, which would undeniably have a positive effect on poor farmers who rely on the crop to make ends meat.
Interesting, if socialists took over power of America, they would do it by using the Constitution and then they would dismantle the Constitution as soon as they had the power to do so. Probably expel missionary groups. Hey, wait a minute, they're already doing that.
And yet, Christianity is still flourishing in socialist Europe.

Vatican City has yet to be razed as far as I am aware.

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Post #94

Post by 1John2_26 »

Half of America's youth are clamoring for methods to alter their consciousness (occasionally myself included). And guess what? They usually always get what they are looking for.
The other half are not. I see them in the Evangelical churches I visit. Even some from your camp are trying to get out.

No wonder Chavez is ousting Christians from his socialist country.

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Post #95

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

If only all conversion stories had such happy endings.


I know firsthand the hope and meaning religion can bring into one's life, and appreciate those who are able to harness that energy into something positive and beneficial.

Religion made me a liar.

I never believed any of the farfetched dogma contained in the Bible. I never accepted the convulted excuses apologetics gave the obvious fallacies and inconsistancies that accompanied the teachings. But for years I willed myself to, in part due to an unwillingness to stray from the standards I had been indoctrinated into and had made such great personal sacrifices to preserve, in part not to dissappoint my mother.

Submitting to the Bible also involved some degree of moral disengagement. I never understood why women should not be granted the same social rights. Never understood how homosexuals were somehow lesser beings. Never understood why sex, a beautiful and natural thing should be avoided at all cost (seriously, is there any actual reasoning for this? The Bible never provides any). Most of all, I had great trouble yoking myself to an "all loving" God who considers it perfectly justified to wipe out a whole race of people on a regular basis, small children and animals included.

I am naturally a very independant, individualistic person (to the point of being completely anti-social), and eventually knew I would break free of the mental jail. Well what do you know, here I am. Check out that new member title.

Now I freely submit to the philosophies I had yearned to pursue as a Christian. They have provided me with ample hope and meaning. I am currently working to the fufillment of many personal/occupational goals, and no longer need detract from my precious time the effort needed to make it to this so-called "heaven".

Anyway, point is, everyone does not need religion in order to find meaning in their lives. But to each his own, for those of you who do.

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Post #96

Post by 1John2_26 »

If only all conversion stories had such happy endings.
P-P, Paul was beheaded. The disciples dispersed and hopeless. Many were really murdered.
I know firsthand the hope and meaning religion can bring into one's life, and appreciate those who are able to harness that energy into something positive and beneficial.

Religion made me a liar.


Religion makes everyone a liar. Only sociopaths are not affected. I will endeavor to see the beauty inherent in your passion about the suffering of the poor. I firmly believe it is better to not believe in anyhting than to be a liar. Atheist I once was and my passion and compassion for others was just as intact as it is now. I will see many Atheists sitting beside Christ as I believe that many go through Christ in their actions of peace and compassion towards others. I think everyone should become a Christian but "doing Christ" is far better than thinking Christ.
I never believed any of the farfetched dogma contained in the Bible. I never accepted the convulted excuses apologetics gave the obvious fallacies and inconsistancies that accompanied the teachings.
Convoluted? You may want to reexamine the meaning of that word. There are far too many atheists and skeptics that spin like the best of them. Skeptics are a healthy condition for the church until the go too far. The disciples were skeptics even after the resurrection. The need for the Dawkins' of the world are to point out that anti-Christians can be "stupid too." Thinking a watch can make itself is stupidity defined and declared. I think that apologetics has done a more than admirable job "defending the faith." I came to Christ by examining the facts. To many "coincidneces" for me to deny this man Jesus was God. He was and is.
But for years I willed myself to, in part due to an unwillingness to stray from the standards I had been indoctrinated into and had made such great personal sacrifices to preserve, in part not to dissappoint my mother.


Me too. I rejected Christianity in viscious and passionate ways. I got laid a lot. I got stoned a lot. I woke up alone a lot. A big hole still in the middle of me. A God shaped hole.
Submitting to the Bible also involved some degree of moral disengagement. I never understood why women should not be granted the same social rights. Never understood how homosexuals were somehow lesser beings. Never understood why sex, a beautiful and natural thing should be avoided at all cost (seriously, is there any actual reasoning for this? The Bible never provides any).
A Readers Digest versionyou have been given P-P. My Bible is full fof sexual beauty. Sex though is a "natural thing." The homosexuals have to go that one alone. I just see facts and go with them. I do not deny them. Though I see the Christian-Gay movement as both a dire evil and a path to salvation. I will not deny the Gospel to anyone because it cannot be denied to anyone. Again, the facts. The Bible provides many facts.
Most of all, I had great trouble yoking myself to an "all loving" God who considers it perfectly justified to wipe out a whole race of people on a regular basis, small children and animals included.
I do too. I like Uriah "the Hittite" and Hagar the prostitute and Ruth the Maobitess still know that Israel's God is the true God.
I am naturally a very independant, individualistic person (to the point of being completely anti-social), and eventually knew I would break free of the mental jail. Well what do you know, here I am. Check out that new member title.


You are an agnostic like every single disciple of Christ. Christ frees minds.
Now I freely submit to the philosophies I had yearned to pursue as a Christian. They have provided me with ample hope and meaning. I am currently working to the fufillment of many personal/occupational goals, and no longer need detract from my precious time the effort needed to make it to this so-called "heaven".
You are no longer religious or are even more so? Christ Jesus started no religion. It is a fact.
Anyway, point is, everyone does not need religion in order to find meaning in their lives. But to each his own, for those of you who do.
But everyone needs to find meaning in their lives. We are certainly not "just animals."

It is time for you to discard the religion of secular humanism as well.

And build a real socialistic state that allows personal freedom, autonomy from the collective and yet, cares for others like you want to be cared for.

Sound familiar?

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Post #97

Post by 1John2_26 »

Guess what?

The axis of evil is getting bigger. Jihad terrorists, Socialist Latino organizations and of course American Democrats, Liberals and Progressives.

All are exclusivelty anti-Christians.

What a club these guys are in.
Bicycle and oil deals cement Chavez's ties to Iran By Alireza Ronaghi
46 minutes ago



Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez enveloped his Iranian counterpart Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in a bear hug on Sunday and the two men backed their anti-U.S. rhetoric with deals on everything from bicycles to oil.

In a typically verbose speech, robust ex-paratrooper Chavez lambasted their common enemy, Washington.

"If the U.S. empire succeeds in establishing its dominance, there will be no future for humanity. Therefore we should save humanity and end the American empire," Chavez told a crowd at the University of Tehran.

Chavez also criticized the current offensive by Israel, Iran's arch-enemy, against Lebanon as "both fascism and terrorism." This chimed with the view of Iran's president who has compared Israel's conduct to that of Adolf Hitler.

A beaming Ahmadinejad presented Chavez with the golden "High Medallion of the Islamic Republic of Iran" and slipped a blue sash around his chest.

"Mr Chavez is my brother, the brother of the whole Iranian nation and of all freedom-seeking people in the world," he said.

"He is a perpetual warrior against the dominant system, a worshipper of God and a servant of the people," he added.

Chavez and Ahmadinejad are both ex-military populists who take a hawkish price stance in the OPEC oil cartel. They enjoy a close personal rapport.

Both countries frequently boast they are steeled for any military assault the United States may launch.

Venezuelan Energy and Mines Minister Rafael Ramirez echoed the leaders' defiant attitude by threatening to cut oil exports to the United States if Washington did not drop its hostile stance toward Chavez's administration.

MORE THAN RHETORIC

But there was more than Yankee-bashing to the visit, and the Venezuelan delegation signed several Memorandums of Understanding on joint work in the oil industry and housing.

Iran and Venezuela also signed deals on jointly making bicycles, medicines and industrial moulds, and pledged to cooperate in aviation and on environmental issues, though details on all these contracts were hazy.

Iranian Oil Minister Kazem Vaziri-Hamaneh said the Iranian firm Petropars would invest $4 billion in two Venezuelan energy projects.

Petropars is already certifying some tarry crude in the Orinoco Belt and is looking to develop reserves there. It also wants to supply training and services to the Norte de Paria offshore gas field.

A planned deal for Venezuela to export gasoline to Iran was canceled. Industry Minister Alireza Tahmasbi told Reuters this was because of problems over pricing and quality.

The contract had attracted considerable interest because of confusion over whether Iran is going to cut gasoline imports from September 23.

Iranian investors have already poured $1 billion of investment into Venezuela, mainly in sectors such as energy, construction and tractor-building.

Carmaker Iran Khodro said it would start making its Samand model in Venezuela in October.

Although commercial deals are proceeding, some analysts have said that Chavez's dependence on the United States as a major buyer of his oil will probably prevent him from striking any arms deals with Tehran.

Chavez visited Moscow before Iran, and on Thursday Russia said it had sold Venezuela 77 aircraft and helicopters as part of a long-term package of arms deals worth over $3 billion.

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Post #98

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The axis of evil is getting bigger. Jihad terrorists, Socialist Latino organizations and of course American Democrats, Liberals and Progressives.
Makes you sorry you missed the Rapture, doesn't it?

DanZ

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Post #99

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1John wrote:Guess what?

The axis of evil is getting bigger. Jihad terrorists, Socialist Latino organizations and of course American Democrats, Liberals and Progressives.

All are exclusivelty anti-Christians.
I missed the part where Ahmadinejad and Chavez were hugging Joe Lieberman, Jim Hightower, and Michael Moore. COuld you point that out for me?

Could you prove that Democrats, liberals, progressives are all exclusively anti-CHristian?



Even Lieberman, who is Jewish, is not anti-Christian.

Remember, you did say exclusively, which means they all are.



Getting back to reality, yes the U.S. needs to be concerned about especially Ahmadinejab. Unfortunately, we have made a lot of mistakes in dealing with Iran in the past, which is one reason someone like Ahmadinejab got into power. Now, we have really very little control over the situation.
juliod wrote:Makes you sorry you missed the Rapture, doesn't it?
?? What does this have to do with anything??

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Post #100

Post by juliod »

Makes you sorry you missed the Rapture, doesn't it?


?? What does this have to do with anything??
Sorry, I think what I wrote was a bit too obscure. I should have been more expansive. But I bet 1john understood it.

What with all the "expansion of evil" and all the other signs (war in the middle east, etc), I'm under the impression that the Rapture has just happened, a few weeks ago.

I mean, we are definitely into the Tribulations, and so anyone left behind (to coin a phrase) is obviously not a true christian. I think this news makes 1john a littel sad.

DanZ

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