You Don't Need to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?

[2timothy316]

"Correct view" you say. Clear this up for me. You mean one must believe in the basic belief of the trinity to be saved right?

No, I’m saying the complete opposite. I’m explicitly saying one doesn’t have to have the correct/true view of God’s nature (trinitarian or not) to be saved. I’m saying one can be wrong about the trinity and still be saved.

Is this true? One doesn't have to believe in the trinity to be saved?

[JehovahsWitness]

Do you mean that the Holy Spirit does not have will, emotions and intelligence?

Power/energy (like electricity) cannot have indepenendent will, emotions and intelligence: energy is not a person. Gods the holy spirit is simply his power, car use it to spa people je te is angry with them or make them feel better if he loves them, but it is always an expression of HIS intention..

Do power/energy have emotions?

ARE power and energy a person?

[JehovahsWitness]

Power/energy (like electricity) cannot have indepenendent will, emotions and intelligence: energy is not a person. God spirit is simply HIS power/active forcee . He can use it to zap people If he is angry with them or make them feel better if he loves them, but it is always an expression of HIS intention/his emotion.

• "The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as someTHING, not someone." - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 575, Vol. 13, 1967

• "In the OT the Holy Spirit means a divine power ..." -p. 269, The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1976

• "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power." - A Catholic Dictionary - The Catholic Encyclopedia: "Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person."

• "The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view. . . . The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics [Gospels] and in Acts as a divine force or power." - Catholic theologian Fortman:

• "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power." - A Catholic Dictionary

• "In the New Testament .... The Holy Spirit is conceived as an impersonal power by which God effects his will through Christ." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm, ed. p. 34

• " It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power." - New Bible Dictionary, p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers , 1984.

• " The emergence of Trinitarian speculations in the early church theology led to great difficulties in the article about the Holy Spirit. For the being-as-person of the Holy Spirit, which is evident in the New Testament as divine power...could not be clearly grasped.... The Holy Spirit was viewed not as a personal figure but rather as a power" - The New Encyclopedia Britannica.

Further Reading
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... pirit.html

#QUESTION What about the texts that seem to attribute human characteristics to the holy spirit?

a. Wisdom is said to have children - Luke 7:35

b. Sin and death are kings Romans 5:14, 21

c. Sin is a demon crouching at the door At Genesis 4:7 (NEB)

d. the water and the blood speak (as "witnesses") 1 John 5:6-8

e. Blood can speak (calling for Justice) Genesis 4:10

Obviously this personification is not to be taken literally to mean the above are people. In a similar way the personification of the Holy Spirit is not to be taken to mean literally it is a person.

(John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:13, John 15:26, John 16:13)

ANSWER:

In by far the majority of texts the holy spirit is portrayed in an impersonal manner, for example believers are urged to be "filled with holy spirit"; obviously we are not "filled" with a literal person. However there are texts that seem to attribute human characteritics to the HOLY SPIRIT. The bible sometimes does attribute human characteristics to forces or entities, to convey an idea in a metaphorical way.

RELATED POSTS

What is HOLY SPIRIT?
viewtopic.php?p=1154914#p1154914

What is a person's the SPIRIT?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 60#p877560

Is there a difference between the soul and the spirit?
viewtopic.php?p=820981#p820981

What is "the breath of life"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p819272

What is a soul/spirit/death/hell?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 56#p330856

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HOLY SPIRIT, SPIRIT and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD

[Capbook]

Power/energy (like electricity) cannot have indepenendent will, emotions and intelligence: energy is not a person. God spirit is simply HIS power/active forcee . He can use it to zap people If he is angry with them or make them feel better if he loves them, but it is always an expression of HIS intention/his emotion.

• "The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as someTHING, not someone." - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 575, Vol. 13, 1967

• "In the OT the Holy Spirit means a divine power ..." -p. 269, The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1976

• "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power." - A Catholic Dictionary - The Catholic Encyclopedia: "Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person."

• "The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view. . . . The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics [Gospels] and in Acts as a divine force or power." - Catholic theologian Fortman:

• "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power." - A Catholic Dictionary

• "In the New Testament .... The Holy Spirit is conceived as an impersonal power by which God effects his will through Christ." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm, ed. p. 34

• " It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power." - New Bible Dictionary, p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers , 1984.

• " The emergence of Trinitarian speculations in the early church theology led to great difficulties in the article about the Holy Spirit. For the being-as-person of the Holy Spirit, which is evident in the New Testament as divine power...could not be clearly grasped.... The Holy Spirit was viewed not as a personal figure but rather as a power" - The New Encyclopedia Britannica.

Further Reading
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... pirit.html

#QUESTION What about the texts that seem to attribute human characteristics to the holy spirit?

a. Wisdom is said to have children - Luke 7:35

b. Sin and death are kings Romans 5:14, 21

c. Sin is a demon crouching at the door At Genesis 4:7 (NEB)

d. the water and the blood speak (as "witnesses") 1 John 5:6-8

e. Blood can speak (calling for Justice) Genesis 4:10

Obviously this personification is not to be taken literally to mean the above are people. In a similar way the personification of the Holy Spirit is not to be taken to mean literally it is a person.

(John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:13, John 15:26, John 16:13)

ANSWER:

In by far the majority of texts the holy spirit is portrayed in an impersonal manner, for example believers are urged to be "filled with holy spirit"; obviously we are not "filled" with a literal person. However there are texts that seem to attribute human characteritics to the HOLY SPIRIT. The bible sometimes does attribute human characteristics to forces or entities, to convey an idea in a metaphorical way.

RELATED POSTS

What is HOLY SPIRIT?
viewtopic.php?p=1154914#p1154914

What is a person's the SPIRIT?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 60#p877560

Is there a difference between the soul and the spirit?
viewtopic.php?p=820981#p820981

What is "the breath of life"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p819272

What is a soul/spirit/death/hell?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 56#p330856

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SOULS, SPIRIT and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD

But why the Holy Spirit included in Mat 28:19 if they are not of the same nature.
Just like your example of Tom, I forgot the two, are they are not the same human?

[JehovahsWitness]

But why the Holy Spirit included in Mat 28:19 if they are not of the same nature.

What do you mean by "the same nature"? God's spirit is of course supernatural and is "spiritual" , is that what you mean by "the same nature"?

[Capbook]

But why the Holy Spirit included in Mat 28:19 if they are not of the same nature.

What do you mean by "the same nature"? God's spirit is of course supernatural and is "spiritual" , is that what you mean by "the same nature"?

The same as God.

[JehovahsWitness]

But why the Holy Spirit included in Mat 28:19 if they are not of the same nature.

What do you mean by "the same nature"? God's spirit is of course supernatural and is "spiritual" , is that what you mean by "the same nature"?

The same as God.

If you mean that the holy spirit is a person with a personality, independent will and emotions then no.
If you mean it is an expression of his power which he can use like a carpenter uses a hammer or a mother uses a blanket, then Yes

[Capbook]

But why the Holy Spirit included in Mat 28:19 if they are not of the same nature.

What do you mean by "the same nature"? God's spirit is of course supernatural and is "spiritual" , is that what you mean by "the same nature"?

The same as God.

If you mean that the holy spirit is a person with a personality, independent will and emotions then no.
If you mean it is an expression of his power which he can use like a carpenter uses a hammer or a mother uses a blanket, then Yes

To me, "If you mean that the holy spirit is a person with a personality, independent will and emotions then." Yes.
Will (Acts 13:2)
Emotion (Eph 4:30)
Intelligence (1Cor 2:10,11)

[JehovahsWitness]

(Acts 13:2)

DOES ACTS 13:2 INDICATE THE HOLY SPIRIT ACTED INDEPENDENT OF GOD AS ITS OWN PERSON?

No, there is no such statement in the bible. The expression that the holy spirit spoke is metaphorical, meaning that the Apostles were moved by the holy spirit to express God's will for them. See 1 Peter 1 verse 21.

1 PETER 1v21

For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved* by holy spirit.

• God uses his holy spirit to inspire (inspire literally means god breathed) his prophets to speak HIS (God's) thoughts.

RELATED POSTS

What is HOLY SPIRIT ?
viewtopic.php?p=1154914#p1154914

[Capbook]

(Acts 13:2)

DOES ACTS 13:2 INDICATE THE HOLY SPIRIT ACTED INDEPENDENT OF GOD AS ITS OWN PERSON?

No, there is no such statement in the bible. The expression that the holy spirit spoke is metaphorical, meaning that the Apostles were moved by the holy spirit to express God's will for them. See 1 Peter 1 verse 21.

1 PETER 1v21

For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved* by holy spirit.

• God uses his holy spirit to inspire (inspire literally means god breathed) his prophets to speak HIS (God's) thoughts.

RELATED POSTS

What is HOLY SPIRIT ?
viewtopic.php?p=1154914#p1154914

In this verse, who decide to separate and who called them?

Acts 13:2
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
KJV

[JehovahsWitness]

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO GRIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT?






Here Paul was using a figure of speech.

For example, if one were to play a piece of beautiful music badly his actions might be said to be an insult to the music; it would also be an insult to the composer. Similarly, since the spirit is under God’s direction, one displeasing and “grieving” it would be resisting or grieving Jehovah.

While not being a person, the holy spirit is expressive of God’s personality just as the Bible is, so it is quite fitting to equate hurting God to figuratively "grieving" the spirit.