The soul and the eternal soul

[Ross]

Here I am to learn about a Bible topic that I admittedly have never studied in any depth. I am bringing no pre conceived views; and I will base my conclusion upon the evidence provided. Please help me to understand this.

Firstly what is the soul of a man or woman?

Secondly, do other creatures have this?

And thirdly does Bible scripture give any indication that the soul lives on after death and or is immortal?

[Ross]

I just think you missed to see "1a) breath of life" definition of the Bible lexicon I've posted, soul and spirit are interchangeable base on context.
The "soul" in Mat 10:28, for me it refers to the breath of life (spirit), it will return to God.
Remember, dust(body) + breath of life(spirit) are the two elements that makes a living soul.
Mat 10:28 I believe refers to the two elements and not to the outcome.
Soul that sinned, it shall die.

The Koine' Greek word for soul is psykhe'

The Koine' Greek word for spirit is pneuma

You previously described an absolute distinction between the two words, and stated:

Anything that has life, is a living soul. When died, body return to dust

God's breath/spirit return to God,

So where please are scriptural examples where the two words are interchangeable?


You earlier strongly emphasised that:

God's breath/spirit return to God,

The spirit returns to God (it is not destroyed.)

However, Jesus states that God can destroy the soul in hell.

Are you able to provide further clarification?

[Capbook]

I just think you missed to see "1a) breath of life" definition of the Bible lexicon I've posted, soul and spirit are interchangeable base on context.
The "soul" in Mat 10:28, for me it refers to the breath of life (spirit), it will return to God.
Remember, dust(body) + breath of life(spirit) are the two elements that makes a living soul.
Mat 10:28 I believe refers to the two elements and not to the outcome.
Soul that sinned, it shall die.

The Koine' Greek word for soul is psykhe'

The Koine' Greek word for spirit is pneuma

You previously described an absolute distinction between the two words, and stated:

Anything that has life, is a living soul. When died, body return to dust

God's breath/spirit return to God,

So where please are scriptural examples where the two words are interchangeable?


You earlier strongly emphasised that:

God's breath/spirit return to God,

The spirit returns to God (it is not destroyed.)

However, Jesus states that God can destroy the soul in hell.

Are you able to provide further clarification?

I quote Ezek 18:20, it says, the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Is the verse wrong?

If you interpret that soul cannot die, many Bible texts says otherwise.
And you've also said God can destroy the soul in hell, it proves that wicked soul shall die in hell.
Further you mentioned the spirit cannot be destroyed. (emphasis is mine)
So, what do you think "unable to kill soul" mean in Mat 18:28, applied to?
Indestructible spirit or destructible soul.
Remember Bible lexicon defined "soul" in that verse as "breath of life(spirit) and living soul.

Here are some verses that speaks of soul who sins shall die, even he who cannot keep his soul alive, deliver their soul from death, that really means wicked souls shall die.

Ezek 18:4
4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
Ps 22:29
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
Ps 33:18-19
18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who fear Him, On those who hope for His lovingkindness,
19 To deliver their soul from death, And to keep them alive in famine.
Ps 56:13
13 For Thou hast delivered my soul from death, Indeed my feet from stumbling, So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.
NASB

[Ross]

I quote Ezek 18:20, it says, the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Is the verse wrong?

Of course not. But think about the verse. Why would it say that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

If all souls die, the verse would have no meaning and would not be necessary in scripture.. Its very implication appears to be that the soul that does not sin will not die.

And you've also said God can destroy the soul in hell, it proves that wicked soul shall die in hell.

I didn't say it. It was The Lord

Further you mentioned the spirit cannot be destroyed. (emphasis is mine)
So, what do you think "unable to kill soul" mean in Mat 18:28, applied to?
Indestructible spirit or destructible soul.

Did Jesus utter the word psykhe or nephesh? He used the Koine Greek word for 'soul'.

And he makes both a distinction between the body from the soul, and says that men cannot kill the soul.

Do you think he didn't have a grasp of his language, or didn't know what he was talking about?

As for the the breath of life or spirit of life, the Bible states that the spirit returns to The God who gave it, and that all living creatures have this same spirit.

Remember Bible lexicon defined "soul" in that verse as "breath of life(spirit) and living soul.

What some lexicon claims has no authority or weight to me. I asked you for examples of scripture to substantiate this. That would have authority and weight of reason. But I see none.

[Capbook]

I quote Ezek 18:20, it says, the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Is the verse wrong?

Of course not. But think about the verse. Why would it say that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

If all souls die, the verse would have no meaning and would not be necessary in scripture.. Its very implication appears to be that the soul that does not sin will not die.

There are believers in Christ (though had sinned but forgiven) still alive whom will not experience the first death when Jesus comes the second time.(1Thes 4:16-17)

And I believe "die" refers to the second death. But if the wicked man, who repents and turns to God will not suffer the second death.(Ezek 33:11-12)

Ezek 33:11-12
11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
NASB

And you've also said God can destroy the soul in hell, it proves that wicked soul shall die in hell.

I didn't say it. It was The Lord

Yes, God said it and you agree, it also proves my point.

Further you mentioned the spirit cannot be destroyed. (emphasis is mine)
So, what do you think "unable to kill soul" mean in Mat 18:28, applied to?
Indestructible spirit or destructible soul.

Did Jesus utter the word psykhe or nephesh? He used the Koine Greek word for 'soul'.

And he makes both a distinction between the body from the soul, and says that men cannot kill the soul.

Do you think he didn't have a grasp of his language, or didn't know what he was talking about?

As for the the breath of life or spirit of life, the Bible states that the spirit returns to The God who gave it, and that all living creatures have this same spirit.

Bible words in Greek or Hebrew have wide meanings, if we do not consult Bible lexicons which define Bible words at the time it was used, I believe we'll be misled. And I don't believe that you weren't taught by your teachers to turn to dictionaries to find its meaning at school.

Remember Bible lexicon defined "soul" in that verse as "breath of life(spirit) and living soul.

What some lexicon claims has no authority or weight to me. I asked you for examples of scripture to substantiate this. That would have authority and weight of reason. But I see none.

Lexicons define Bible words, and I noticed JWs rarely used lexicons. Anyway verse below does interchange spirit and soul.

Luke 1:46-47
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
ASV

[Ross]

Remember Bible lexicon defined "soul" in that verse as "breath of life(spirit) and living soul.

Bible lexicons are written by men who attempt to understand ancient lost languages used for scripture. They often interpret their beliefs or misunderstandings into them.
I believe this lexicons comment is incorrect

Lexicons define Bible words, and I noticed JWs rarely used lexicons.

I am not a Jehovah's Witness. But you are correct. They are encouraged only to use the literature their movement prints.

Anyway verse below does interchange spirit and soul.

Luke 1:46-47
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
ASV

Rather than Mary stating that her soul was her spirit or her spirit was her soul, to the contrary, she clearly separates the two.

My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

It is also quite likely that she was referring to her spirit in the sense of worshiping God with "spirit and truth" John 4:24 rather than the "breath of life" that returns to God upon death.

So, what do you think "unable to kill soul" mean in Mat 18:28, applied to?
Indestructible spirit or destructible soul.

My own view is that we take the words of Jesus as the highest authority; and as the mark on which to base our understanding of related scripture.
He used the word soul not the word spirit, and men cannot kill the soul.

The breath of life (spirit) returns to God upon death.
The body dies and disintegrates.
The soul sleeps in death awaiting resurrection to a positive or negative outcome.
That soul can be destroyed only in the second death.

[Capbook]

Remember Bible lexicon defined "soul" in that verse as "breath of life(spirit) and living soul.

Bible lexicons are written by men who attempt to understand ancient lost languages used for scripture. They often interpret their beliefs or misunderstandings into them.
I believe this lexicons comment is incorrect

Lexicons define Bible words, and I noticed JWs rarely used lexicons.

I am not a Jehovah's Witness. But you are correct. They are encouraged only to use the literature their movement prints.

Anyway verse below does interchange spirit and soul.

Luke 1:46-47
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
ASV

Rather than Mary stating that her soul was her spirit or her spirit was her soul, to the contrary, she clearly separates the two.

My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

It is also quite likely that she was referring to her spirit in the sense of worshiping God with "spirit and truth" John 4:24 rather than the "breath of life" that returns to God upon death.

So, what do you think "unable to kill soul" mean in Mat 18:28, applied to?
Indestructible spirit or destructible soul.

My own view is that we take the words of Jesus as the highest authority; and as the mark on which to base our understanding of related scripture.
He used the word soul not the word spirit, and men cannot kill the soul.

The breath of life (spirit) returns to God upon death.
The body dies and disintegrates.
The soul sleeps in death awaiting resurrection to a positive or negative outcome.
That soul can be destroyed only in the second death.

Words are words Ross, they carry meaning, and those meaning can be look upon. Yes, they are men just like us but they are credentialed Lexicographers. Please find EDNT, Thayers and Vine's defined "soul" as breath of life(spirit) and living being(soul), natural life(soul).

NT:5590
In the LXX psyche is usually the tr. of nepeš, which is used over 750 times and originally meant "gullet, throat," and then acquired esp. the sense of "breeze, breath": The nepeš makes a person into a breathing and thus living being and "signifies that which is vital in man in the broadest sense"
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

NT:5590 psuchee, psuchees, hee
1. breath
a. the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing: Acts 20:10
b. life: Matt 6:25
c. that in which there is life; a living being: , a living soul.
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

NT:5590. psuche besides its meanings, "heart, mind, soul," denotes "life" in two chief respects, (a) "breath of life, the natural life,"
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)


You are not a JW, does it mean that you do consult Bible lexicons?

Mary does proves that the three Bible lexicons are correct.

You've said, "The soul sleeps in death awaiting resurrection to a positive or negative outcome."
That contradicts to your stand that the soul cannot be killed.

[Ross]

You are not a JW, does it mean that you do consult Bible lexicons?

No, I consult scripture and interlinears.

You've said, "The soul sleeps in death awaiting resurrection to a positive or negative outcome."
That contradicts to your stand that the soul cannot be killed.

What I said was that the soul cannot be killed by man. This is not my stand; rather it is the concise plain and emphatic words of Jesus Christ which you appear to be denying.

You already agreed with me earlier when you stated

And I believe "die" refers to the second death. But if the wicked man, who repents and turns to God will not suffer the second death.(Ezek 33:11-12)

[Capbook]

You are not a JW, does it mean that you do consult Bible lexicons?

No, I consult scripture and interlinears.

Then you might be defining Bible words on your own, or today's preference but not what it means at the time it was used.
At school does your teacher not taught you to used dictionaries?
And even general dictionaries quite not right to define Bible words, but Bible lexicons does foremost.

You've said, "The soul sleeps in death awaiting resurrection to a positive or negative outcome."
That contradicts to your stand that the soul cannot be killed.

What I said was that the soul cannot be killed by man. This is not my stand; rather it is the concise plain and emphatic words of Jesus Christ which you appear to be denying.

Did (man) Cain did not kill Abel? (a soul)

You already agreed with me earlier when you stated.

Yes, but your statement "the soul sleeps in death", then who killed that soul? Second death has not happened yet as it still waits for the resurrection.

And I believe "die" refers to the second death. But if the wicked man, who repents and turns to God will not suffer the second death.(Ezek 33:11-12)

Yes, but your statement shows that second death had not arrive yet.

[Ross]

Then you might be defining Bible words on your own, or today's preference but not what it means at the time it was used.
And even general dictionaries quite not right to define Bible words, but Bible lexicons does foremost.

I'm not saying one shouldn't use lexicons or read Bible commentaries, but they vary tremendously as they are written by indoctrinated and imperfect men. You seem to believe such have ultimate authority, but in practice it is possible to use concordances commentaries and dictionaries to establish any interpretation one has by cherry picking. The Bible is quite capable of explaining itself by an individual ruminating over multiple scripture. Most modern Bibles and especially interlinears have already defined the closest meaning of Hebrew and Koine' Greek words.

Second death has not happened yet as it still waits for the resurrection.
And I believe "die" refers to the second death. But if the wicked man, who repents and turns to God will not suffer the second death.(Ezek 33:11-12)
your statement shows that second death had not arrive yet.

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems we agree on this point.

Did (man) Cain did not kill Abel? (a soul)

I would say he killed Abel but not his soul. According to your Lord, men cannot kill the soul. You appear to be scrambling around attempting to disagree with him or insisting he misused his words.

Right after that dirty deed we read recorded in Genesis 4:1: The Lord asking Cain

“What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground."

How do you explain this?

[Capbook]

I'm not saying one shouldn't use lexicons or read Bible commentaries, but they vary tremendously as they are written by indoctrinated and imperfect men. You seem to believe such have ultimate authority, but in practice it is possible to use concordances commentaries and dictionaries to establish any interpretation one has by cherry picking. The Bible is quite capable of explaining itself by an individual ruminating over multiple scripture. Most modern Bibles and especially interlinears have already defined the closest meaning of Hebrew and Koine' Greek words.

Yes, my resource interlinears does contain lexicons. And there are a lot of Bible translations that are thought for thought that does not used the original Bible words that might mean something other than what the original languages intended.

Second death has not happened yet as it still waits for the resurrection.
And I believe "die" refers to the second death. But if the wicked man, who repents and turns to God will not suffer the second death.(Ezek 33:11-12)
your statement shows that second death had not arrive yet.

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems we agree on this point.

This is your statement that I am commenting about "soul cannot be killed by man", and "The soul sleeps in death awaiting resurrection to a positive or negative outcome." My question is who killed that soul that sleeps in death? Sure, it's not the second death as it still await the resurrection.

Did (man) Cain did not kill Abel? (a soul)

I would say he killed Abel but not his soul. According to your Lord, men cannot kill the soul. You appear to be scrambling around attempting to disagree with him or insisting he misused his words.

I'm unsure how you define soul. I define soul basing Gen 2:7, as man have life or a living man.

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Right after that dirty deed we read recorded in Genesis 4:1: The Lord asking Cain

“What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground."

How do you explain this?

Yes, God knows everything that happened, He just first inquired where his brother was, closely urges him in order to extort an unwilling confession of his guilt.