None good but God

[Wootah]

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Question: If there are none good but God how can a not good being pay for my sins?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #239]

1 - if you are set free from prison, does that mean you can go wherever you want? Or does that simply mean that you are no longer in prison?

You are reflecting on our poor prison system. We let too many people free. Setting that aside, yes if a person is legally free to leave a prison then they have paid their debt. No concept of reward is added but they are free of their debt. But they hsould be allowed to fully be part of society.

But they are not entitled to a reward. And that is the point. You used the prison analogy, but doing time for some crime or another does not mean that you are entitled to some kind of reward when that time is served.

How does a temporary hell mean we are as good as God at some point?

Because to get out of prison is to have satisfied our debts against an infinite God.

I think we have established that the prison analogy does not work.

Death is the consequence of sin. Cause and effect. "Hell" or rather, the world of the dead, is simply the place where the dead go. Being resurrected doesn't mean you paid for anything.

The judgment doesn't even occur until after the thousand years are over, at the resurrection of the dead.
--

I think you are saying people die and go somewhere where they feel nothing, then they get resurrected, some to life and some to the second death, and those going to the second death die again and feel nothing.

Yes, you've got it. But please note that is not what "I" am saying. That is what Christ teaches; that is what the scriptures attest to (as shown in the previous post.)

How is that punishment for sins? Most atheists and haters of Jesus would be happy with that.

So? Do you think God has some need for people to suffer for all eternity? You keep talking about how my faith makes God out to be unjust (among other things), but what do you think your description shows?

God gives us a choice. He always has. The choice is not 'life' or 'eternal suffering.' The choice is "life" or "death." Seriously, the exact same choice that was given to Adam in the Garden of Eden. Eat from the Tree of Life (Christ), or eat from the tree of knowing good (life) AND BAD (death).


I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, Deuteronomy 30:19

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me. John 6:57

The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9


Peace again to you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to tam in post #241]

What reward? Heaven is for those without sin. If a criminal can do the time and pay for their sins then they get to go to heaven.

If God says no then God is unjust.

You are mistaken.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #241]

What reward?

Eternal life is a gift, Wootah. It is not something anyone will have earned.

Heaven is for those without sin.

None of us are without sin.

If a criminal can do the time and pay for their sins then they get to go to heaven.

Even using the prison analogy, this would not be true. Being punished for a crime is not the same thing as being forgiven for a crime. If a criminal is punished for his crime, he still has a criminal record. That record will follow him around and prevent him from some opportunities (things like travel, certain kinds of jobs, etc.)

Also, getting out of prison does not mean that person will not re-offend. It doesn't mean that person has changed. It doesn't mean that person even WANTS to have changed. Some, maybe, others not. Getting out of prison does not mean that a person is without sin.

So getting out of 'hell' does not mean that a person is all good now. But "hell" is not a prison, per se. "Hell" is the place where the dead (who are not Christian) go to await the resurrection of the dead - after which time comes the judgment. If you feel you have to use the justice system as an analogy, 'hell' would be more like the holding cell before someone goes to court/comes before the judge.

You are mistaken.

Wootah, did you read the rest of the post beyond the part about a reward? If you have, then what about the scriptures that STATE point blank that the dead do receive a resurrection (some receive a resurrection to life; some receive a resurrection to judgment and the second death.)

The 'second death' is the sentence.


Peace again to you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to tam in post #243]

If eternal life is purely a gift that God can give to anyone then why did Jesus die on a cross?

We are bought with a price. It is also a gift because Jesus didn't have to do it.

Any understanding that has a criminal leaving jail and not being fully allowed to participate in society indicates that you don't think they should be out of jail. In our fallen world I agree. Ideally I don't.

No one needs Jesus to get to heaven. We die, we get judged. Those who earn their way to heaven go to heaven.

I am not going to take that risk. I am going to allow Jesus to pay for my sins and be set free from me paying the penalty.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #230]

While it is tempting to cover harsh reality it is best not to do so.
The idea of Hell being flames is probably linked to Jesus using rubbish dumps as an analogy but it is undeniable he meant for people to understand that they are not simply going to be unaware of anything after their bodies have died. Otherwise he would not have stressed the gnashing of teeth - symbolic of those who were told something and chose not to believe it.

The "gnashing of teeth" comes BEFORE the people die and cease to exist.

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #230]

While it is tempting to cover harsh reality it is best not to do so.
The idea of Hell being flames is probably linked to Jesus using rubbish dumps as an analogy but it is undeniable he meant for people to understand that they are not simply going to be unaware of anything after their bodies have died. Otherwise he would not have stressed the gnashing of teeth - symbolic of those who were told something and chose not to believe it.

The "gnashing of teeth" comes BEFORE the people die and cease to exist.

Hell and the Near-Death Experience

The evidence (as reported by the ones who have experienced NDE's) tells a different story than that of your small religious organisation's peddling of biblical interpretations.

From the link.

As with heaven, near-death experiencers have witnessed numerous variations of hell realms. These hell realms are not for judgment nor punishment, nor are they eternal. They are states of mind which acts as a “time out” condition for reflection, education and purification of negative thought patterns. We can also witness numerous manifestations of these hell realms right here on earth. You can see people rotting away in prison; alcoholics passed out on Skid Row; addicts out of their minds in crack houses; people killing each other out of hatred; unsatisfied people living in luxury; all kinds of hellish conditions involving unnecessary suffering. While hell realms can be seen on earth, they are merely a reflection of the inner hell within people. Hell realms in the spirit world are the perfect outward manifestation of the inner hellish condition within people. This is because when we die, we “step into” the inner spirit realm we have cultivated within us our entire life.

and

5. Hell is neither condemnation nor judgment
“There is no condemnation in hell, only the outworking of our own misjudgments, mistakes, misalignments, or misappropriations.” (P.M.H. Atwater)

“Those with too many negative thought patterns might flee the light of God after death because they are too ashamed or too afraid to have their inner thoughts and negative natures revealed to everyone.” (Dr. George Ritchie)

“After his death, Jesus descended into the lower afterlife regions to ‘unlock’ the gates of hell. But souls still remaining there – for them – the gates are locked from the inside. Nevertheless, NDE evidence reveals Jesus continues to rescue souls from hell during a near-death experience.” (Kevin Williams)

“I saw the reasons for all of my actions and understood why I did what I had done. There was a place for all of my positive and negative actions. There was no action that was necessarily wrong, but there were actions I took that did not enhance positive growth.” (David Oakford)

“In hell, we have the opportunity to either revel in our folly or come to grips with the reality of consequences — that every action has a reaction, what is inflicted on another can be returned in kind. This is not a punishment for our sins but a confrontation with any distortion of our sense of values and priorities.” (P.M.H. Atwater)

“Just knowing the bad mistakes you made through your carelessness or your selfishness is a hell. You don’t need a devil prodding you with a fork.” (Margaret Tweddell)

“God does not condemn anyone to hell and there is no eternal damnation. We have the ability to condemn ourselves to the hell we create within ourselves.” (Kevin Williams)

“The God of love suffers for those in darkness, ignorance and misery.” (Nora Spurgin)

“Many people believe that those who don’t give verbal assent to Jesus are cast headlong into eternal fire to burn forever. It should be common sense to anyone that a God of love would never treat people this way. As Jesus said, even an evil father knows how to give good things to children.” (Kevin Williams)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to William in post #246]

I am weary of your insults. I see no reason for further conversation with you.

[otseng]

The evidence (as reported by the ones who have experienced NDE's) tells a different story than that of your small religious organisation's peddling of biblical interpretations.

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[William]

[Replying to William in post #246]
I see no reason for further conversation with you.

Suit yourself.

I see no reason to ignore the witness of those who have experienced NDEs or accept the contrary beliefs re biblical interpretations you believe in.