None good but God

[Wootah]

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Question: If there are none good but God how can a not good being pay for my sins?

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #230]

While it is tempting to cover harsh reality it is best not to do so.
The idea of Hell being flames is probably linked to Jesus using rubbish dumps as an analogy but it is undeniable he meant for people to understand that they are not simply going to be unaware of anything after their bodies have died. Otherwise he would not have stressed the gnashing of teeth - symbolic of those who were told something and chose not to believe it.

People who are aware of nothing, would have no reason to gnash their teeth, so we can rule your explanation out.

There are also a great number of reports from folk who have experienced NDEs and some of those reports tell us that they do indeed experience hellish environments, (and not just the tradition "flames" people associate with hell) and these reports confirm what Jesus reportedly spoke about so are part of the evidence for consideration.



As for the author of Ecclesiastes opinion that "The dead are conscious of nothing.", this opinion contradicts/conflicts with what Jesus reported and thus - If I were to claim that Jesus was my Lord and I his Slave and that I followed what he said, I would have to say that Jesus takes precedence over some unknown author preceding him.

Yet more to the point - in context - (the verse you used is out of context), the author is specifically speaking about life on this side of death - life on the planet "under the sun" and is NOT saying that those who have departed that life, do not experience anything - but rather that they no longer are experiencing life on this planet - so in context, the author is NOT saying anything which contradicts what Jesus was saying, but simply speaking specifically about the living being alive on earth experiencing thing which the departed no longer experience.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 Context

All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. (Note: Confirmed by NDE reports)

For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Note. The dead no longer have they access to that which they once had - access to that which is under the sun/things to do with living on earth)

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (Note. Those who have died have no more say or influence regarding what is happening on earth re those still living on earth)

Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. (Note. Enjoy your life on earth while you have it.)

Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. KJV

[Wootah]

If I were to claim that Jesus was my Lord and I his Slave and that I followed what he said, I would have to say that Jesus did say that there was a hell to experience and didn't say that folk who die simply "went to sleep" or were no longer aware.

Jesus did say that Lazarus went to sleep meant died. And dead in verse 10 defined in Greek-English Lexicon as
unable to respond, react, no impulse or desire and etc.;

NT:599 Dead
to be unable to respond or react to any impulse or desire - 'to be dead to, to not respond to, to have no part in.'
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain.)

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

God is God of the living not the dead.

Jesus point therefore is that contrary to what people thought, he was not dead as we think of death as pagans do, but merely asleep, the body is dead but the spirit is alive as we await the new heaven and new earth and resurrection bodies.

[William]

[Replying to Wootah in post #232]

God is God of the living not the dead.

Which can be interpreted as I have done. Of what use is a dead thing to God? Of what use is a dead thing to itself?

btw Most "pagans" believe in some form of reincarnation, viewing death as a transition within a continuing process of existence.


Take everything of what Jesus said in overall CONTEXT, and one will "get the picture"...(see Matthew 17: 1 -13 for example...

[Capbook]

If I were to claim that Jesus was my Lord and I his Slave and that I followed what he said, I would have to say that Jesus did say that there was a hell to experience and didn't say that folk who die simply "went to sleep" or were no longer aware.

Jesus did say that Lazarus went to sleep meant died. And dead in verse 10 defined in Greek-English Lexicon as
unable to respond, react, no impulse or desire and etc.;

NT:599 Dead
to be unable to respond or react to any impulse or desire - 'to be dead to, to not respond to, to have no part in.'
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain.)

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

God is God of the living not the dead.

Jesus point therefore is that contrary to what people thought, he was not dead as we think of death as pagans do, but merely asleep, the body is dead but the spirit is alive as we await the new heaven and new earth and resurrection bodies.

Is Christ the God of the dead in 1 Thes 4:16?

We believe that the breath of life (as spirit) that God gave to Adam that made him a living soul, and that breath (spirit) returns to God in Ecc 12:7.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.(NIV)

[Wootah]

If I were to claim that Jesus was my Lord and I his Slave and that I followed what he said, I would have to say that Jesus did say that there was a hell to experience and didn't say that folk who die simply "went to sleep" or were no longer aware.

Jesus did say that Lazarus went to sleep meant died. And dead in verse 10 defined in Greek-English Lexicon as
unable to respond, react, no impulse or desire and etc.;

NT:599 Dead
to be unable to respond or react to any impulse or desire - 'to be dead to, to not respond to, to have no part in.'
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain.)

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

God is God of the living not the dead.

Jesus point therefore is that contrary to what people thought, he was not dead as we think of death as pagans do, but merely asleep, the body is dead but the spirit is alive as we await the new heaven and new earth and resurrection bodies.

Is Christ the God of the dead in 1 Thes 4:16?

We believe that the breath of life (as spirit) that God gave to Adam that made him a living soul, and that breath (spirit) returns to God in Ecc 12:7.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.(NIV)

1 Thes 4:16: Jesus is rescuing the captives of death and setting them free. He is the God of life and has mastery over death of course.

Just to help work out where you are coming from. What denomination are you?

[Capbook]

If I were to claim that Jesus was my Lord and I his Slave and that I followed what he said, I would have to say that Jesus did say that there was a hell to experience and didn't say that folk who die simply "went to sleep" or were no longer aware.

Jesus did say that Lazarus went to sleep meant died. And dead in verse 10 defined in Greek-English Lexicon as
unable to respond, react, no impulse or desire and etc.;

NT:599 Dead
to be unable to respond or react to any impulse or desire - 'to be dead to, to not respond to, to have no part in.'
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain.)

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

God is God of the living not the dead.

Jesus point therefore is that contrary to what people thought, he was not dead as we think of death as pagans do, but merely asleep, the body is dead but the spirit is alive as we await the new heaven and new earth and resurrection bodies.

Is Christ the God of the dead in 1 Thes 4:16?

We believe that the breath of life (as spirit) that God gave to Adam that made him a living soul, and that breath (spirit) returns to God in Ecc 12:7.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.(NIV)

1 Thes 4:16: Jesus is rescuing the captives of death and setting them free. He is the God of life and has mastery over death of course.

Just to help work out where you are coming from. What denomination are you?

I belong to a Protestant denomination but still a seeker of truth.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #222]

In another direction on the same topic.

What is your view of hell? Does it exist, if not what do you believe? Is it forever? And can God justly forgive people without Jesus?

Now that you received a response to your questions (post 224... viewtopic.php?p=1150060#p1150060), may I ask how this relates to the topic?


Peace again to you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to tam in post #237]

Hi Tam,

Hell is prison.

If you are set free from prison then you have paid for your crimes.
So if you are set free from hell you have paid for your sins.
If you have paid for your sins then God has no reason to prevent you from going to heaven. If God still prevents you then God is being arbitrary and malicious. God is not arbitrary and malicious.

So our view of hell and whether it is forever or not is also our view of God's righteousness and holiness. If hell is temporary (even if for a billion years) then at some point in time sins against God can be paid for and therefore we can be equal to God (and also what is the point of Christ, we can all go to heaven eventually).

Anyone with a view of temporary hell and permanent second death devalues God.

Anyway, the goal is have you see God is holy and righteous and your beliefs undermine that. Any view of temporary hell means that we are as good as God at some point in time.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #237]

Hi Tam,

Hell is prison.

If you are set free from prison then you have paid for your crimes.
So if you are set free from hell you have paid for your sins.
If you have paid for your sins then God has no reason to prevent you from going to heaven.

1 - if you are set free from prison, does that mean you can go wherever you want? Or does that simply mean that you are no longer in prison?

2 - this is kind of moot because 'hell' (the world of the dead) is not the same as prison. People go to the world of the dead (Sheol/hell/hades) to await the resurrection of the dead. No judgment has yet occurred for the people currently in 'hell' (simply meaning the world of the dead.) It is just the place where the dead sleep - remember that Job longed to go there to ESCAPE his suffering in this world; and Jacob knew he would be going there (to his son Joseph, except of course Joseph had not yet died).

If God still prevents you then God is being arbitrary and malicious.

Why?

Paying a penalty for something you did (a crime), doesn't mean you have 'earned' something more. If a man committed theft, and went to prison, then got out of prison... he doesn't also get a reward, does he?

God is not arbitrary and malicious.

Agreed.

So our view of hell and whether it is forever or not is also our view of God's righteousness and holiness. If hell is temporary (even if for a billion years) then at some point in time sins against God can be paid for and therefore we can be equal to God (and also what is the point of Christ, we can all go to heaven eventually).

I think you have a few assumptions that are not supported, like assuming that a person who gets out of prison should somehow also get a reward. Or assuming that the people currently in the world of the dead have already been judged. Both of these assumptions are incorrect.

The judgment has not yet occurred. The judgment occurs at the end of the thousand years, at the resurrection of the dead, where some receive life at that time and some receive judgment and the second death.

Look:

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:28, 29


And:

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:13-15

The second death/lake of fire here IS permanent. Those who receive judgment and the second death are destroyed and that IS permanent.

Anyone with a view of temporary hell and permanent second death devalues God.

How does it do that? Scripturally speaking, hell (the world of the dead/sheol/hades) IS temporary. Hades gives up the dead in it, and then Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire. Look at the scriptures above.

Anyway, the goal is have you see God is holy and righteous and your beliefs undermine that. Any view of temporary hell means that we are as good as God at some point in time.

How does a temporary hell mean we are as good as God at some point?


Peace again to you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to tam in post #239]

1 - if you are set free from prison, does that mean you can go wherever you want? Or does that simply mean that you are no longer in prison?

You are reflecting on our poor prison system. We let too many people free. Setting that aside, yes if a person is legally free to leave a prison then they have paid their debt. No concept of reward is added but they are free of their debt. But they hsould be allowed to fully be part of society.

How does a temporary hell mean we are as good as God at some point?

Because to get out of prison is to have satisfied our debts against an infinite God.

--

I think you are saying people die and go somewhere where they feel nothing, then they get resurrected, some to life and some to the second death, and those going to the second death die again and feel nothing.

How is that punishment for sins? Most atheists and haters of Jesus would be happy with that.