Can God ever really Murder someone?

[achilles12604]

This stemmed from many discussions but most recently this one. . .

Achilles wrote:
Sometimes you need to fight and yes kill for something much bigger than yourself. Yes killing is still evil and we can wish forever for a better way. But lets face it. People are stupid, stubborn and violent. Sometimes being violent is the best way to resolve a bigger problem.


Cogitoergosum wrote:
true sometimes violence is warranted and u might fight for a cause, but if a cause makes u kill innocent people on purpose then that cause is not worth fighting for. There is a difference between intentionally targeting innocent people and collateral damage in a war where we don't have the smartest weapon to kill only combatants.

My question is this. Would the act of God removing life from the earth be evil?

Here's my thoughts on the matter. Since this whole discussion hinges on the assumption of God we are not going to debate his existence here.


1) Since God exists, he is the author and creator of all life. He quite literally formed life from nothing.

2) When life ends, it doesn't really end. It simply transitions into the afterlife.

Now, my view is that since God created all life, he should be entitled to removing it from earth whenever he wishes. The last time I discussed this with a non-theist, their reply was something like . . .

"So since my Girlfriend and I created my Son, I should be able to kill him?"

This reply was actually not really applicable. I explained to him that he and his girl didn't actually "create" his son. They came together and mixed DNA which was already part of their bodies and that in turn began the process of developing a child. However, this is not the same thing as taking absolutely nothing, and creating life from it. These are two different levels.

So humans, since they can not replace, create or recreate life on earth, nor can they reverse the decision to take life if they choose to, they should not be allowed to take life.

God on the other hand was the author of all life and since it was his creation, his own picture or house or whatever, he should be able to do what he wants with it.

An analogy would be should a person be allowed to destroy their own home that they built for themselves? Should a person be allowed to destroy their home and start over if the home isn't functioning correctly; if it isn't fulfilling the role of a house?

Ok now that I have opened up a huge theological can of worms (or vipers we shall see which), go for it. What do you all think?

[Goose]

Number31 1- 54...Under god's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

The "for yourselves" doesn't leave much to the imagination.

Why do you assume this means rape. It could just as easily mean, take them as your wives and protect them. You wouldn't be biased by any chance would you?

True. However I missed where he called himself "vindictive". Could you cite the verse on that one for me?

Actions speak louder than words...Numbers 25:1-5

Couldn't find the scripture, huh?

BTW, the scipture you noted is anger towards sin. It's punishment. There's a difference. Nice try though.

[Goat]

Number31 1- 54...Under god's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

The "for yourselves" doesn't leave much to the imagination.

Why do you assume this means rape. It could just as easily mean, take them as your wives and protect them. You wouldn't be biased by any chance would you?

True. However I missed where he called himself "vindictive". Could you cite the verse on that one for me?

Actions speak louder than words...Numbers 25:1-5

Couldn't find the scripture, huh?

BTW, the scipture you noted is anger towards sin. It's punishment. There's a difference. Nice try though.

I can easily see how this 'punishment' can be viewed as vindictive though.

[Confused]

Ok now that I have opened up a huge theological can of worms (or vipers we shall see which), go for it. What do you all think?

No, it is not murder. The manufacturer of a product is perfectly with in his right to pull that product off the shelf any time he feels it necessary. God made us with an expiry date. So technically He has killed all of us, in a matter of speaking, Hasn't He? The timing of which or the manner in which we depart from this life is irrelevant.

God gave us life. We hold that life temporarily. If I gave something to another person for temporary use and then asked for it back, I'm not doing anything wrong. It is within my right. If another person takes that item while in the possession of the person I gave it to, then that is theft. This would be equivalent to a human taking another human life.

Wow, I think this is like the first major major major disagreement I have had with one of your statements.

I hope we can still be friends.

So since God created man, he can do as he wishes, right.

In a word, yes.

Just as if we clone a human, we can do as we wish? Or is the fact that we are using materials created by God going to limit what we can do to the clone but not what God can do

Let's get a human cloned first. Then we can deal with this.

Also, you are not distinguishing between creation of life (in a God sense) and the chemical process of test tubes and conception.

This defies the thought of a just God.

Why is this unjust?

Simply because you are superior to something or someone or even the creator of it doesn't give you the right to pick it apart limb by limb does it?

I think I understand your point, but I don't think God is picking us apart limb by limb.

Now can, God murder, he doesn't, he takes the human life and either sends it to eternal heaven or eternal hell. Is it better to send someone to hell than to murder them?

Remember, I believe in free will. God doesn't want to send any one to hell. People send themselves to hell by rejecting God.

I think cloning humans is a bad idea (unless it is Matthew McConnaughay). So I will leave that where it lies.

God may not be picking us apart limb by limb, but is sentencing you to eternal damnation after death any better? Free will. My position, yes we do have it. IF God exists, I can still see us having free will. Just because God knows the path I am going to take doesn't mean He is forcing me to take it. He just knows it. While that defies logic in a sense, I can rectify it in my mind. Here is what I can't. You say God is just because it is our choice. But if God already knew what you were to do, then just by creating you he has sent you to hell. See where the ethical problem lies. And I am sorry, but I dont believe that just because you create something you can do what you will with it. If I adopt a puppy, can I torture it? I paid for it, right? Is it not mine? If you believe that God can do what he wishes with His creation, then you must admit that He places no value on His creation because a God who did, wouldn't create a person who He already knew was going to go to hell. Not would he allow those who reject Him torture and kill those who accept Him. He is the reason they are being persecuted. If He placed any value on His creation (ie. love) then He would protect it, not attempt to destroy it (Noah-flood) or subject it to fallen angels (casting satan to earth) or allow harm from the environment to damage it (nulcear waste). Overall, I would have to conclude that God may not murder you, but He does do worse in many cases.

[bernee51]

Number31 1- 54...Under god's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

The "for yourselves" doesn't leave much to the imagination.

Why do you assume this means rape. It could just as easily mean, take them as your wives and protect them. You wouldn't be biased by any chance would you?

You could be right...the 'chosen people' could have been acting altruistically in killing and kidnapping. The virgins may have been very thankful for that and given themselves willingly.

Is that the flapping of pig wings I hear?

True. However I missed where he called himself "vindictive". Could you cite the verse on that one for me?

Actions speak louder than words...Numbers 25:1-5

Couldn't find the scripture, huh?

BTW, the scipture you noted is anger towards sin. It's punishment. There's a difference. Nice try though.

God asked for them to be killed and then the bodies be hung up for him to see. Nice guy. Very forgiving. No vindicativeness there at all.

[FiredUp4jesus]

Number31 1- 54...Under god's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

The "for yourselves" doesn't leave much to the imagination.

Why do you assume this means rape. It could just as easily mean, take them as your wives and protect them. You wouldn't be biased by any chance would you?

You could be right...the 'chosen people' could have been acting altruistically in killing and kidnapping. The virgins may have been very thankful for that and given themselves willingly.

Is that the flapping of pig wings I hear?

True. However I missed where he called himself "vindictive". Could you cite the verse on that one for me?

Actions speak louder than words...Numbers 25:1-5

Couldn't find the scripture, huh?

BTW, the scipture you noted is anger towards sin. It's punishment. There's a difference. Nice try though.

God asked for them to be killed and then the bodies be hung up for him to see. Nice guy. Very forgiving. No vindicativeness there at all.

Vengeance is mine sayest the Lord. The difference is that God is always perfectly justified because there is no other who is like Him nor above Him no one else who can possibly see or determine a better way of doing things. Anyone who does (humanists) are only fooling themselves.

[Metatron]

Vengeance is mine sayest the Lord. The difference is that God is always perfectly justified because there is no other who is like Him nor above Him no one else who can possibly see or determine a better way of doing things. Anyone who does (humanists) are only fooling themselves.

So being God gives him carte blanche to perform any evil, despicable act he feels like?

[achilles12604]

Vengeance is mine sayest the Lord. The difference is that God is always perfectly justified because there is no other who is like Him nor above Him no one else who can possibly see or determine a better way of doing things. Anyone who does (humanists) are only fooling themselves.

So being God gives him carte blanche to perform any evil, despicable act he feels like?

Why would killing be "evil" for God?

This is something which has not been explained yet. I gave a few good reasons why there is a difference between human ending human and God ending human.

Since the standards of existence are so totally different, why should God be constrained by the exact same standards of ethics as us?

[Goat]

Vengeance is mine sayest the Lord. The difference is that God is always perfectly justified because there is no other who is like Him nor above Him no one else who can possibly see or determine a better way of doing things. Anyone who does (humanists) are only fooling themselves.

So being God gives him carte blanche to perform any evil, despicable act he feels like?

Why would killing be "evil" for God?

Why WOULDN'T killing be evil for God?

[Metatron]

Vengeance is mine sayest the Lord. The difference is that God is always perfectly justified because there is no other who is like Him nor above Him no one else who can possibly see or determine a better way of doing things. Anyone who does (humanists) are only fooling themselves.

So being God gives him carte blanche to perform any evil, despicable act he feels like?

Why would killing be "evil" for God?

This is something which has not been explained yet. I gave a few good reasons why there is a difference between human ending human and God ending human.

Since the standards of existence are so totally different, why should God be constrained by the exact same standards of ethics as us?

Being human, I can only judge concepts like good and evil in terms that a human can comprehend. That good and evil should be defined differently for God makes no sense at all to me. I can only judge events by my own moral philosophy.

I don't believe that just because God allegedly created us that this gives him moral carte blanche to do whatever he wishes to us. You've mentioned the distinctions that you make between God's creation of man and parent's "creation" of a child. While there may be physical distinctions between the two, I see no moral distinction at all. My wife and I made the decision to bring two children into the world knowing that we were making a lifetime commitment to love them, raise them to the best of our ability, see to their education, and assist them as they make their way into the world. I see God's moral commitment to his creations in a similar light. Just as I believe that it would be morally wrong for me to harm, torture, or kill my children, I believe that is wrong for God to do these things to his creations. This is especially true in my mind of the utterly despicable concept of eternal damnation which is a level of evil beyond human capabilities.

[Cathar1950]

Hi McCulloch!

It's natural for you to question Gods justice of Eternal Punishment.

Isaiah 55:8,9—For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And NO, God cannot commit murder. Since God cannot Sin.

Love,
Madeline

I need to finish reading the thread but it occurred to me that if we can't know his ways then why bother?
Isaiah would be the words and thoughts of man.

Another passage I always like was when Abraham questions God and says;

Genesis 18:25

That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Of course one of the Pharaoh’s titles was "the judge of all the earth".
I am sure others had it in Mesopotamia, the ones writing codes and laws long before Moses.