Can God ever really Murder someone?

[achilles12604]

This stemmed from many discussions but most recently this one. . .

Achilles wrote:
Sometimes you need to fight and yes kill for something much bigger than yourself. Yes killing is still evil and we can wish forever for a better way. But lets face it. People are stupid, stubborn and violent. Sometimes being violent is the best way to resolve a bigger problem.


Cogitoergosum wrote:
true sometimes violence is warranted and u might fight for a cause, but if a cause makes u kill innocent people on purpose then that cause is not worth fighting for. There is a difference between intentionally targeting innocent people and collateral damage in a war where we don't have the smartest weapon to kill only combatants.

My question is this. Would the act of God removing life from the earth be evil?

Here's my thoughts on the matter. Since this whole discussion hinges on the assumption of God we are not going to debate his existence here.


1) Since God exists, he is the author and creator of all life. He quite literally formed life from nothing.

2) When life ends, it doesn't really end. It simply transitions into the afterlife.

Now, my view is that since God created all life, he should be entitled to removing it from earth whenever he wishes. The last time I discussed this with a non-theist, their reply was something like . . .

"So since my Girlfriend and I created my Son, I should be able to kill him?"

This reply was actually not really applicable. I explained to him that he and his girl didn't actually "create" his son. They came together and mixed DNA which was already part of their bodies and that in turn began the process of developing a child. However, this is not the same thing as taking absolutely nothing, and creating life from it. These are two different levels.

So humans, since they can not replace, create or recreate life on earth, nor can they reverse the decision to take life if they choose to, they should not be allowed to take life.

God on the other hand was the author of all life and since it was his creation, his own picture or house or whatever, he should be able to do what he wants with it.

An analogy would be should a person be allowed to destroy their own home that they built for themselves? Should a person be allowed to destroy their home and start over if the home isn't functioning correctly; if it isn't fulfilling the role of a house?

Ok now that I have opened up a huge theological can of worms (or vipers we shall see which), go for it. What do you all think?

[McCulloch]

Assuming that God exists, the killing of humans by God is not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of one or more humans by another human(s). God is not human. God, the lawgiver, has not made any law stating that he, himself, should not kill humans. In fact, he is on record as stating that humans should not take their own revenge, since vengeance apparently belongs to him.

However, the question, "Is God being moral when he causes the death of a human?" is a bit more difficult. In the case of those not condemned to eternal torment, I would have to answer that the timing of the transition from the mortal limited human life to the immortal eternal life is not much of a moral issue.

I believe that eternal torment is immoral, but that opens the whole Euthyphro's Dilemma.

[Madeline]

Hi McCulloch!

It's natural for you to question Gods justice of Eternal Punishment.

Isaiah 55:8,9—For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And NO, God cannot commit murder. Since God cannot Sin.

Love,
Madeline

[Goat]

Hi McCulloch!

It's natural for you to question Gods justice of Eternal Punishment.

Isaiah 55:8,9—For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And NO, God cannot commit murder. Since God cannot Sin.

Love,
Madeline

Do you think that God should hold himself to at least the standards that he holds us?

[McCulloch]

It's natural for you to question Gods justice of Eternal Punishment.

Isaiah 55:8,9—For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This is a cop out. Either God is good and just as we understand goodness and justice or God is good and just by definition. Which is it? If the first, then we can examine and evaluate examples of God's goodness and justice. If the second, we cannot use His alleged goodness and justice as evidence of his being.

And NO, God cannot commit murder. Since God cannot Sin.

Here I agree with Madeline for different reasons. God cannot murder for the same reason that a lion cannot murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human by another human. God is not a human.

By the way, have you been able to finish your promised research in the area of Speaking in Tongues yet?

[Goose]

...Either God is good and just as we understand goodness and justice or God is good and just by definition. Which is it? If the first, then we can examine and evaluate examples of God's goodness and justice. If the second, we cannot use His alleged goodness and justice as evidence of his being.

The problem with us examining examples of God's goodness and justice, or apparent lack of, is significantly hampered by our lack of omniscience. Our evaluation of God will be based on a finite time scale and limited knowledge. We can't possibly begin to understand why God has performed certain acts that we might consider good or immoral. There might very well be good and just reasons for the actions that God has taken which we might not fully understand. Therefore our conclusions about His actions are made without all the facts so to speak. How can we make a proper decision with out having full knowledge of all events on an infinite scale?

This is why, for me, I don't judge God. I am reliant on what I am told about His nature and weight this against the good that He has done. I believe the good He has done far outweighs the bad He allows. Considering free will the bad is necessary (but that is another argument). In other words, I give Him the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty. We can't prove Him guilty because we don't have all the evidence. If we don't have all the evidence one's negative judgment of God is very likely to be wrong.

[Goose]

Ok now that I have opened up a huge theological can of worms (or vipers we shall see which), go for it. What do you all think?

No, it is not murder. The manufacturer of a product is perfectly with in his right to pull that product off the shelf any time he feels it necessary. God made us with an expiry date. So technically He has killed all of us, in a matter of speaking, Hasn't He? The timing of which or the manner in which we depart from this life is irrelevant.

God gave us life. We hold that life temporarily. If I gave something to another person for temporary use and then asked for it back, I'm not doing anything wrong. It is within my right. If another person takes that item while in the possession of the person I gave it to, then that is theft. This would be equivalent to a human taking another human life.

[achilles12604]

Hi McCulloch!

It's natural for you to question Gods justice of Eternal Punishment.

Isaiah 55:8,9—For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And NO, God cannot commit murder. Since God cannot Sin.

Love,
Madeline

Do you think that God should hold himself to at least the standards that he holds us?

Honestly no.

I do not hold my daughter to the same standard as myself. I do not hold my dog to the same standard as myself or my daughter and so on down the line.

If God exists, then he would be infinately higher than we are. So no he should not be held to our standards.

[Goat]

This stemmed from many discussions but most recently this one. . .

Achilles wrote:
Sometimes you need to fight and yes kill for something much bigger than yourself. Yes killing is still evil and we can wish forever for a better way. But lets face it. People are stupid, stubborn and violent. Sometimes being violent is the best way to resolve a bigger problem.


Cogitoergosum wrote:
true sometimes violence is warranted and u might fight for a cause, but if a cause makes u kill innocent people on purpose then that cause is not worth fighting for. There is a difference between intentionally targeting innocent people and collateral damage in a war where we don't have the smartest weapon to kill only combatants.

My question is this. Would the act of God removing life from the earth be evil?

Here's my thoughts on the matter. Since this whole discussion hinges on the assumption of God we are not going to debate his existence here.


1) Since God exists, he is the author and creator of all life. He quite literally formed life from nothing.

2) When life ends, it doesn't really end. It simply transitions into the afterlife.

Now, my view is that since God created all life, he should be entitled to removing it from earth whenever he wishes. The last time I discussed this with a non-theist, their reply was something like . . .

"So since my Girlfriend and I created my Son, I should be able to kill him?"

This reply was actually not really applicable. I explained to him that he and his girl didn't actually "create" his son. They came together and mixed DNA which was already part of their bodies and that in turn began the process of developing a child. However, this is not the same thing as taking absolutely nothing, and creating life from it. These are two different levels.

So humans, since they can not replace, create or recreate life on earth, nor can they reverse the decision to take life if they choose to, they should not be allowed to take life.

God on the other hand was the author of all life and since it was his creation, his own picture or house or whatever, he should be able to do what he wants with it.

An analogy would be should a person be allowed to destroy their own home that they built for themselves? Should a person be allowed to destroy their home and start over if the home isn't functioning correctly; if it isn't fulfilling the role of a house?

Ok now that I have opened up a huge theological can of worms (or vipers we shall see which), go for it. What do you all think?

So, you hold yourself to a higher standard than your dog and your daughter. That means, you will not do worse than your dog or your daughter.

That means, you hold yourself to at LEAST the standard you hold your dog and your daughter... ..

[McCulloch]

The problem with us examining examples of God's goodness and justice, or apparent lack of, is significantly hampered by our lack of omniscience. Our evaluation of God will be based on a finite time scale and limited knowledge. We can't possibly begin to understand why God has performed certain acts that we might consider good or immoral. There might very well be good and just reasons for the actions that God has taken which we might not fully understand. Therefore our conclusions about His actions are made without all the facts so to speak. How can we make a proper decision with out having full knowledge of all events on an infinite scale?

This is why, for me, I don't judge God. I am reliant on what I am told about His nature and weight this against the good that He has done. I believe the good He has done far outweighs the bad He allows. Considering free will the bad is necessary (but that is another argument). In other words, I give Him the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty. We can't prove Him guilty because we don't have all the evidence. If we don't have all the evidence one's negative judgment of God is very likely to be wrong.

How can you say that you don't judge God on one hand yet you, yourself, judge that God's good deeds outweighs the bad that He allows. Either you can judge God or you cannot.