History Repeats Itself - Genesis 33:1,2

[Ben Masada]

History Repeats Itself - Genesis 33:1,2


When Jacob was returning from Paddan Aram, where he had spent about 20 years working for his uncle Laban, and was approaching Canaan, he was told that his brother Esau was on his way with 400 men to meet him.

Jacob got so desperately anxious for his life and the lives of his family, that he spent the whole night fighting in prayer for a solution about what to do. If we remember, when he had left Canaan, his brother had promised to kill him for having stolen his blessing of the firstborn.

As Jacob looked up and saw his brother from afar off, he decided to divide his family in three groups. The only thing in his mind was that Esau would kill them all in revenge for what had happened 20 years ago.

So, in the first group, Jacob set his maidservants with their children, so that in case they got killed, the others behind could have a chance to escape. In the second group, he set Leah with her children, perhaps to safeguard the lives of Rachel, Joseph and himself, just in case.

Fortunately, for everyone's luck, Esau had changed his mind in the course of those 20 years and nothing drastic happened to anyone. However, everyone with the minimum of commonsense can see that this attitude of Jacob's was everything but fair.

But let's see how different Jesus did to prevent History from repeating itself. The text is in Matthew 26:36-39.

Soon after the Last Supper, as he sensed arrest, he took his disciples and fled to a hiding place in the Gethsemani. At the entrance of the Garden, he left eight of the disciples and told them to watch, and took farther inside the other three disciples: Peter, James and John. Perhaps he thought, if there was a fight, at least the second group would have a chance to escape. In another place farther in, he told the three disciples to stay put and watch, while he would go deeper inside to spend some time in prayer.

Now, I have been wondering how much of these two cases have in common. One thing we can all be certain of: Both men, Jacob and Jesus were going through the same kind of anxieties in fear for their lives. Bear in mind that the parallel between the facts within the cases is astounding. Would it be appropriate to think of the eight disciples at the entrance of the Garden as the facsimile to the maidservants of Jacob with their children? How about the three disciples in the second group meant to represent Leah with her children? And scary of all, Jesus himself for Jacob with Rachel and Joseph? Luke does say that Jesus was indeed so anxious as to sweat even drops of blood. Anyway but... I don't think either case justifies the measures taken. Both sound too unfair. Any idea out there to set my mind at easy?

Ben:

[Paul2]

Ben,

But you do claim that Gethsemane was his customary hiding place.

Why would the text say that Judas ALSO who betrayed him knew the place? Besides, it says in the same text that it was his custom to go there with his disciples. Read John 18:2. I think I am vindicated.

People visit gardens because they are pleasant places to be. What is wrong with visiting a garden with your friends? What is wrong with your friends knowing you like to visit a garden? I like to visit gardens. My wife likes to visit gardens. No one would think it strange that my wife knows which gardens I like to visit. No one should think it strange that Judas knew which garden Jesus liked to visit.

Your case is not in a good state of health. You are certainly not vindicated.

If the cohorts needed Judas to guide them there, it is only obvious that not everyone knew how to get to Jesus.

Judas Iscariot was the disciple who betrayed Jesus. Why wouldn't Caiaphas and the others ask him where Jesus might be?

No? How about when he had to disappear from crowded places away from people?

We are discussing the night of his arrest.

They never had anything personal against Jesus. Their problem was against any Jew who could mount a threat to their job.

What they did could not have been avoided.


Paul

[Ben Masada]

Ben,

But you do claim that Gethsemane was his customary hiding place.

Ben: Read John 18:2.]

People visit gardens because they are pleasant places to be. What is wrong with visiting a garden with your friends? What is wrong with your friends knowing you like to visit a garden? I like to visit gardens. My wife likes to visit gardens. No one would think it strange that my wife knows which gardens I like to visit. No one should think it strange that Judas knew which garden Jesus liked to visit.

Ben: Nobody said it's wrong to visit gardens. The text says that Jesus used to go there with frequency, and that a guide was needed to get the cohorts to him. That's all. If he knew it was hard to find him in the Gethsemani, why didn't he wait to be arrest in the Upper Room, where they were having supper? Why did he go to the Gethsemani when it was much easier to get arrested in the Upper Room? There is something here to suspect.

No? How about when he had to disappear from crowded places away from people?

We are discussing the night of his arrest.

Ben: So, why did he have to disappear into the Gethsemani without telling Judas where he could be found? This is smelling more and more like running away with the thought to escape arrest.

Ben:




[/b]

[Paul2]

Ben,

So, why did he have to disappear into the Gethsemani without telling Judas where he could be found? This is smelling more and more like running away with the thought to escape arrest.

A man supplied the upper room as a venue for the passover meal. When the passover meal was over, Jesus left and went to Gethsemane to pray.

We are not told whether or not Jesus told Judas Iscariot where he could be found later. You have no evidence to support your assertion that Jesus did not tell Judas where he could be found.


Paul

[Ben Masada]

Ben,

So, why did he have to disappear into the Gethsemani without telling Judas where he could be found? This is smelling more and more like running away with the thought to escape arrest.

A man supplied the upper room as a venue for the passover meal. When the passover meal was over, Jesus left and went to Gethsemane to pray.

We are not told whether or not Jesus told Judas Iscariot where he could be found later. You have no evidence to support your assertion that Jesus did not tell Judas where he could be found.


Paul

Now, you are assuming. Anyways, let me remind you that the Passover Meal in the year 30 was Friday evening, which was the 14th of Nissan. And you know very well that Jesus was on the cross and not getting ready for the Passover Meal.

Now, you can see what kind of people wrote the NT. Read John 19:31. That Sabbath was the solemn feast day of Passover. The Passover meal is held on the evening of the day before.

Jesus was a religious Jew. He would not celebrate the Seder Meal in a different day from the rest of us. What do you say about that? You have only to think.

Ben:

[Ben Masada]

Ben,

So, why did he have to disappear into the Gethsemani without telling Judas where he could be found? This is smelling more and more like running away with the thought to escape arrest.

A man supplied the upper room as a venue for the passover meal. When the passover meal was over, Jesus left and went to Gethsemane to pray.

We are not told whether or not Jesus told Judas Iscariot where he could be found later. You have no evidence to support your assertion that Jesus did not tell Judas where he could be found.

Now, you are assuming. Anyways, let me remind you that the Passover Meal in the year 30 was Friday evening, which was the 14th of Nissan. And you know very well that Jesus was on the cross and not getting ready for the Passover Meal.

Now, you can see what kind of people wrote the NT. Read John 19:31. That Sabbath was the solemn feast day of Passover. The Passover meal is held on the evening of the day before.

Jesus was a religious Jew. He would not celebrate the Seder Meal in a different day from the rest of us. What do you say about that? You have only to think.

Ben:

[Ben Masada]

Ben,


A man supplied the upper room as a venue for the passover meal. When the passover meal was over, Jesus left and went to Gethsemane to pray.


Paul

That day was a Thursday evening. It could not have been the Passover Meal because it was the 13th of Nisan. One could celebrate the Passover Meal later even up to a month or so, but never before. Jesus was a religious Jew and he would abide by the Jewish religious laws. This discrepancy tells a lot about the ignorance of the Gentiles, disciples of Paul, who wrote the gospels.

[Cathar1950]

Ben,


A man supplied the upper room as a venue for the passover meal. When the passover meal was over, Jesus left and went to Gethsemane to pray.


Paul

That day was a Thursday evening. It could not have been the Passover Meal because it was the 13th of Nisan. One could celebrate the Passover Meal later even up to a month or so, but never before. Jesus was a religious Jew and he would abide by the Jewish religious laws. This discrepancy tells a lot about the ignorance of the Gentiles, disciples of Paul, who wrote the gospels.

Assuming the gospels really have any details I have heard arguments that his arrest and death accrued during another festival, I think it was the Tabernacle but I could be wrong. It Was later Christian apologists, the gospel writers (Mark) that places it at Passover for Christi Logical reason which are largely Pauline.
The 22 Psalm was used for the Passion Narrative as well as Isaiah which is shared by all four gospels that changed the detail as needed.
Of course the author of Mark and those that followed his lead place the mythical last supper on a different day then the author of John because they had different purposes. I think it was John that has him die as the passover Lamb while the others have him eating Passover together.
They can't possible be reconciled any more then Acts' account of the Day of Pentecost can be reconciled with John's Receive Ye the Holy Spirit. Yet they do and any explanation is acceptable even if they have to create a less plausible story with invented details because they believe they all have to be right, factual and historical imposing yet another less admirable myth upon another.

[Ben Masada]

Ben,


A man supplied the upper room as a venue for the passover meal. When the passover meal was over, Jesus left and went to Gethsemane to pray.


Paul

That day was a Thursday evening. It could not have been the Passover Meal because it was the 13th of Nisan. One could celebrate the Passover Meal later even up to a month or so, but never before. Jesus was a religious Jew and he would abide by the Jewish religious laws. This discrepancy tells a lot about the ignorance of the Gentiles, disciples of Paul, who wrote the gospels.

Assuming the gospels really have any details I have heard arguments that his arrest and death accrued during another festival, I think it was the Tabernacle but I could be wrong. It Was later Christian apologists, the gospel writers (Mark) that places it at Passover for Christi Logical reason which are largely Pauline.
The 22 Psalm was used for the Passion Narrative as well as Isaiah which is shared by all four gospels that changed the detail as needed.
Of course the author of Mark and those that followed his lead place the mythical last supper on a different day then the author of John because they had different purposes. I think it was John that has him die as the passover Lamb while the others have him eating Passover together.
They can't possible be reconciled any more then Acts' account of the Day of Pentecost can be reconciled with John's Receive Ye the Holy Spirit. Yet they do and any explanation is acceptable even if they have to create a less plausible story with invented details because they believe they all have to be right, factual and historical imposing yet another less admirable myth upon another.

That's what I call a babel of confusion.