History Repeats Itself - Genesis 33:1,2

[Ben Masada]

History Repeats Itself - Genesis 33:1,2


When Jacob was returning from Paddan Aram, where he had spent about 20 years working for his uncle Laban, and was approaching Canaan, he was told that his brother Esau was on his way with 400 men to meet him.

Jacob got so desperately anxious for his life and the lives of his family, that he spent the whole night fighting in prayer for a solution about what to do. If we remember, when he had left Canaan, his brother had promised to kill him for having stolen his blessing of the firstborn.

As Jacob looked up and saw his brother from afar off, he decided to divide his family in three groups. The only thing in his mind was that Esau would kill them all in revenge for what had happened 20 years ago.

So, in the first group, Jacob set his maidservants with their children, so that in case they got killed, the others behind could have a chance to escape. In the second group, he set Leah with her children, perhaps to safeguard the lives of Rachel, Joseph and himself, just in case.

Fortunately, for everyone's luck, Esau had changed his mind in the course of those 20 years and nothing drastic happened to anyone. However, everyone with the minimum of commonsense can see that this attitude of Jacob's was everything but fair.

But let's see how different Jesus did to prevent History from repeating itself. The text is in Matthew 26:36-39.

Soon after the Last Supper, as he sensed arrest, he took his disciples and fled to a hiding place in the Gethsemani. At the entrance of the Garden, he left eight of the disciples and told them to watch, and took farther inside the other three disciples: Peter, James and John. Perhaps he thought, if there was a fight, at least the second group would have a chance to escape. In another place farther in, he told the three disciples to stay put and watch, while he would go deeper inside to spend some time in prayer.

Now, I have been wondering how much of these two cases have in common. One thing we can all be certain of: Both men, Jacob and Jesus were going through the same kind of anxieties in fear for their lives. Bear in mind that the parallel between the facts within the cases is astounding. Would it be appropriate to think of the eight disciples at the entrance of the Garden as the facsimile to the maidservants of Jacob with their children? How about the three disciples in the second group meant to represent Leah with her children? And scary of all, Jesus himself for Jacob with Rachel and Joseph? Luke does say that Jesus was indeed so anxious as to sweat even drops of blood. Anyway but... I don't think either case justifies the measures taken. Both sound too unfair. Any idea out there to set my mind at easy?

Ben:

[Paul2]

Ben,

You referred to a passage in Matthew and then produced your own fantasy version of its meaning. Nowhere in that passage in Matthew does it say that Jesus fled or that he was anxious.

If Luke is someone worthy believing, there must be something wrong with Matthew.

Now you want to use both Matthew and Luke to support your fanciful notions.

Luke did not write that Jesus was anxious.


Paul

[Ben Masada]

Ben,

You referred to a passage in Matthew and then produced your own fantasy version of its meaning. Nowhere in that passage in Matthew does it say that Jesus fled or that he was anxious.

If Luke is someone worthy believing, there must be something wrong with Matthew.

Now you want to use both Matthew and Luke to support your fanciful notions.

Luke did not write that Jesus was anxious.


Paul

Listen Paul, we are not here posting for children but for adults who can think like you and I.

Think of Jesus with his disciples having the last supper. Judas is indicated as the one who will betray Jesus, leaves, and Jesus knows what he is supposed to do. But Jesus didn't tell him that he would leave. He probably got anxious and took his disciples and fled to the Gethsemani, which was their customary hiding place. So much so that the text says that of the soldiers, only Judas new how to get to Jesus.

And regarding what Luke wrote, he didn't only write that Jesus was suffering from anxiety, but also that he was in such an agony that his sweat was like drops of blood falling on the floor. That's in Luke 22:44. Luke as a Medical Doctor would know what he was talking about. Did you check that before trying to refute me? I don't think so. But that's all right. Next time.

Ben:

[Paul2]

Ben,

He probably got anxious and took his disciples and fled to the Gethsemani, which was their customary hiding place.

Is this a mathematical probability or just your own opinion? If it's your own opinion, it's not a probability.

Where is your evidence from the NT that Jesus had used Gethsemane as a hiding place?

And regarding what Luke wrote, he didn't only write that Jesus was suffering from anxiety, but also that he was in such an agony that his sweat was like drops of blood falling on the floor. That's in Luke 22:44....Did you check that before trying to refute me?

Yes, I did read Luke 22:44 prior to posting and no, he did not write that Jesus was anxious. He wrote that Jesus was in a struggle.

and becoming (coming-to-be) in contest (agOnia meaning struggle) out-stretch-more (more earnestly) he prayed and became the sweat-gush of-him as-if clots of-blood down-stepping (falling) on the land (earth)

Paul

[Ben Masada]

Ben,

He probably got anxious and took his disciples and fled to the Gethsemani, which was their customary hiding place.

Is this a mathematical probability or just your own opinion? If it's your own opinion, it's not a probability.

Where is your evidence from the NT that Jesus had used Gethsemane as a hiding place?

And regarding what Luke wrote, he didn't only write that Jesus was suffering from anxiety, but also that he was in such an agony that his sweat was like drops of blood falling on the floor. That's in Luke 22:44....Did you check that before trying to refute me?

Yes, I did read Luke 22:44 prior to posting and no, he did not write that Jesus was anxious. He wrote that Jesus was in a struggle.

and becoming (coming-to-be) in contest (agOnia meaning struggle) out-stretch-more (more earnestly) he prayed and became the sweat-gush of-him as-if clots of-blood down-stepping (falling) on the land (earth)

Paul

You are not only trying to rewrite the NT but also Psychology. Jesus spends the whole night praying in agonies, sweating like blood falling on the floor. Luke, a Medical Doctor, even uses the word "anguish", and you say that's not anxiety.

And regarding Gethsemani as a place of his hiding, why would the tex say that the place was also familiar to Judas? Because he was bringing the cohorts, who otherwise, would not be able to find the place. (John 18:2,3) And customary hiding place because it says in the same text that Jesus had often been there with his disciples.

Ben:

[Cathar1950]

Ben,

He probably got anxious and took his disciples and fled to the Gethsemani, which was their customary hiding place.

Is this a mathematical probability or just your own opinion? If it's your own opinion, it's not a probability.

Where is your evidence from the NT that Jesus had used Gethsemane as a hiding place?

And regarding what Luke wrote, he didn't only write that Jesus was suffering from anxiety, but also that he was in such an agony that his sweat was like drops of blood falling on the floor. That's in Luke 22:44....Did you check that before trying to refute me?

Yes, I did read Luke 22:44 prior to posting and no, he did not write that Jesus was anxious. He wrote that Jesus was in a struggle.

and becoming (coming-to-be) in contest (agOnia meaning struggle) out-stretch-more (more earnestly) he prayed and became the sweat-gush of-him as-if clots of-blood down-stepping (falling) on the land (earth)

Paul

You are not only trying to rewrite the NT but also Psychology. Jesus spends the whole night praying in agonies, sweating like blood falling on the floor. Luke, a Medical Doctor, even uses the word "anguish", and you say that's not anxiety.

And regarding Gethsemani as a place of his hiding, why would the tex say that the place was also familiar to Judas? Because he was bringing the cohorts, who otherwise, would not be able to find the place. (John 18:2,3) And customary hiding place because it says in the same text that Jesus had often been there with his disciples.

Ben:

The sweating drops of blood passages are believed to have been added much later and are not in the early MS. See Erhman.
Mark has Jesus full of anxiety while Luke doesn't.

[Paul2]

Ben,

You are not only trying to rewrite the NT but also Psychology. Jesus spends the whole night praying in agonies, sweating like blood falling on the floor. Luke, a Medical Doctor, even uses the word "anguish", and you say that's not anxiety.

We are meant to be debating in this subforum on the basis that the text. We are not relying on the vagaries of psychology. The fact is that agOnia means struggle. Here is the definition of agony (as some versions of the NT have) from the Collins Essential English Dictionary:

agony Noun pl -nies acute physical or mental pain [Greek ag�nia struggle]

Now, will you admit that it means struggle or are you going to continue pretending it means what you want it to mean?

And regarding Gethsemani as a place of his hiding, why would the tex say that the place was also familiar to Judas? Because he was bringing the cohorts, who otherwise, would not be able to find the place. (John 18:2,3) And customary hiding place because it says in the same text that Jesus had often been there with his disciples.

So if a man likes to frequent a place with his friends, it must be a place of hiding? This is nonsense.


Paul

[Heterodoxus]

Perhaps he thought, if there was a fight, at least the second group would have a chance to escape.

And where, in the content or context of MT 26:37-39, did you read this thought you attribute to Jesus?

Jacob and Jesus were going through the same kind of anxieties in fear for their lives.

Jacob "in fear," OK; Jesus, not so much.

I saw in another translation where the Englishized phrase "sorrowful and very heavy" in the KJV was rendered as "he began to feel sorrow and depression." And, in that rendering, sorrow indicates that Jesus might have been feeling the effects of the wine he drank at the social supper shared earlier with his soon to be promoted Apostles.

During my drinking days, when I was young and dumb and full of rum, I and my drinking buddies were sometimes, when inebriated, depressed or sad. Based on my experiences then, I give credence now to the non-KJV rendering more than I will to the thoughts and emotions you impute to Jesus in his final hours.

[Heterodoxus]

And where, in the content or context of MT 26:36-39, did you see any thought of escape either stated or implied by Jesus or someone else in the group? Also:

Jacob and Jesus were going through the same kind of anxieties in fear for their lives.

Jacob, perhaps; but Jesus, not so much.

I once saw a translation, from a language in which Jesus and his followers would have been fluent, that rendered the English phrase "began to be sorrowful and very heavy" as began to feel sorrow and depression. Sorrow, in that rendering, inferred that Jesus was likely feeling the effects of the wine he drank earlier at his last church social supper with his soon to be promoted disciples.

FWIW, during my drinking days when I was young and dumb and full of rum, my drinking buddies and I sometimes, when inebriated, felt depressed or sad. Accordingly, based on my experiences then, I now give credence to that rendering more than I do to your misinformed imputations here and elsewhere.

[Ben Masada]

And where, in the content or context of MT 26:36-39, did you see any thought of escape either stated or implied by Jesus or someone else in the group?

Ben: Implied. When Judas left, Jesus knew what Judas went for, and he gave him no instruction about the place he was supposed to be found. Since he got Judas to hurry, he meant to be found in the same place where they were having supper. He probably went cold feet, took his 11 disciples and fled to the the Gethsemani. Yes, implied is the word.

Jacob and Jesus were going through the same kind of anxieties in fear for their lives.
Jacob, perhaps; but Jesus, not so much.

Ben: Luke was a Medical Doctor and he said that he was in such an anguish that his sweat was like drops of blood on the ground. This anguish is an advanced state of tremendous anxiety.

I once saw a translation, from a language in which Jesus and his followers would have been fluent, that rendered the English phrase "began to be sorrowful and very heavy" as began to feel sorrow and depression. Sorrow, in that rendering, inferred that Jesus was likely feeling the effects of the wine he drank earlier at his last church social supper with his soon to be promoted disciples.

Ben: That was a regular supper, when one does not drink as much as at the Passover supper. The regular Passover Supper was supposed to be in that year of
30 CE in the evening of Friday, which was the 14th of Nissan. And Jesus was on the cross that evening. There was no Passover Thursday night. And Jesus could not have celebrated the Passover Supper at a different day from the rest of us, because he was a religious Jew, and it's not Jewish what he is claimed to have done. The truth is that Paul must have fabricated that Passover Supper on that Thursday evening.

FWIW, during my drinking days when I was young and dumb and full of rum, my drinking buddies and I sometimes, when inebriated, felt depressed or sad. Accordingly, based on my experiences then, I now give credence to that rendering more than I do to your misinformed imputations here and elsewhere.

Ben: Not everyone reacts to drinking in the same way. And I said above, there was not that much drink during a normal supper.

Ben: