Who does the rejecting? God or us?

[OnceConvinced]

In another thread this comment was made and I believe it is very typical of many Christians:

but when we reject the only means of salvation God could offer us, we are pretty much spitting in God's face and telling him that we don't need his help.

Christians seem to insist that even though we don't believe in something, that we are spitting in the face of that something if we don't believe in it. I guess I'm spitting in the face of the fairies in my garden that I don't believe exist. And perhaps I'm spitting in the face of the Lochness Monster or Hare Krishna, or Allah etc etc etc.

The question that come to mind now is who does the rejecting exactly? The bible seems to suggest God, not us.

Matthew 22:14: For many are called, but few are chosen."

This suggests here that God chooses who are going to be his followers. Therefore those who he does not choose are rejected by him.

Matthew: 7: 21-24
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Quite clearly here, it is God doing the rejecting sending us away from him, not the other way around. And not only that he is rejecting those who claim to love him and follow him.

Mat 25:41-43 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'

Here we have Christ's rejection of those who were simply guilty of doing nothing.

Matt 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Many Christians quote this one to support their argument that it is man who rejects Christ not the other way around. But to me this clearly shows Christ's rejection of us. He is automatically catergorising anyone that doesn't follow him as being against him. If any other human said something like that, we would see it as irrational and downright paranoid. We would scoff. But for some reason, because Jesus said it, it's somehow reasonable.

And finally, the ultimate rejection from God:

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This quite clearly refutes any notion that we choose to go to Hell or that somehow we will end up there by default ie, if we're not saved we're there automatically. Christ quite cleary commands his angels (rather than doing his own dirty work) to round up all sinners and have them thrown into Hell. We will be rejected, just like weeds.

I could go on and list many more scriptures that show God's rejection of us due to certain actions on our part, but I won't. I think I've posted enough.

So, seeing the above scriptures, what can you conclude? Who does the rejecting? Us or God?

[Cathar1950]

God is entitled to extend his grace to whom he will.
From the beginning, he respected the offering of Abel and not of Cain.

Rom.9
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


Keep in mind that all of mankind (Adam and Eve) were children of God
until sin entered into the world. Then the enemy sewed his seed.
Now we must wait for harvest time.
Jesus saved all that were his.....

So you finish a story with the rest of the story?
That is just preaching and I think we should question your interpretation and Paul's as sin didn't enter anywhere as it was just the breaking of a command ment and we know death was here long before there were people so even the facts don't fit any more then as a limited metaphor.
Sure it was written and how is the author using the passage and what is the passage saying besides pure rhetoric?
Do you think God hated him before he was even Esau?
Here is a passage for you.
Genesis 33:10
Jacob said, "No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight, then take my present from my hand, for I see your face as one sees the face of God, and you have received me favorably.
Here is Jacob speaking to Esau.
Maybe you can tell us what he means.
Jacob, the one that wrestled with a man all night and said he fought with God.
Actually the translation doesn’t do it justice as God here is the Elhime or the gods and could refer to the pantheon of the gods or even their ancestors they worshiped.
Maybe the prophet was just saying that Esau was hated by his ancestors.
Your silly passage doesn’t show us anything except some opinions and rhetoric of some of the authors.
.

Who does the rejecting? God or us?
Interesting question or questions, but I can’t help but feel it must be some kind of trick question.
Or it could be one of those “the chicken or the egg� questions.
I just couldn’t answer and wish there were an alternative like either both or all of the above.
I guess some one could always say that God rejects you because you reject God but I don’t believe rejecting concepts or claims about God are should be equated to God. The attributes to God would seem to be forever open to discovery and claims about the ultimate seem be limited to something less. We should be skeptical concerning claims about the ultimate and claims about God. There is endless disagreement even among fellow believers regardless of their sacred writings and revelations. There is no agreement on how, when or where we should read scripture or how to interpret it.

I still have problems with the abstraction “free will� and have yet to see it as much more then identifying with what you do or how you respond and is some what more of the story then an illusion.
Does God know the future?
I am guessing no as it hasn’t happened yet so God doesn’t know the future like God knows the past and the present. God knows the present and past as immediate and fully as we know in part would also be in keeping with God being omniscience.
This would be in keeping of the prophets giving the word of God which was a call for response with warnings
Each moment is new while containing the past. Good responses are responses that work without the moral embellishments and there are evil responses because they don’t work.
Moralists take commands or laws as if they were the end without reference to their utility.
There are many more possibilities then the usual theist views or concepts.

[OnceConvinced]

God is entitled to extend his grace to whom he will.
From the beginning, he respected the offering of Abel and not of Cain.

Rom.9
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

So I guess based on that you voted that it was God who does the rejecting?

Keep in mind that all of mankind (Adam and Eve) were children of God
until sin entered into the world. Then the enemy sewed his seed.
Now we must wait for harvest time.
Jesus saved all that were his.....

And why did God allow sin to enter the world? Why did he not put something in place to prevent that from happening?

[OnceConvinced]

If I learn what is in the future, I can change my behavior in the present on the basis of that knowledge thereby changing the future.

In your example, if I was able to observe the future and see that my wife will leave me, I might then on the basis of the knowledge, leave her now. This is the kind of paradox which makes time travel impossible. The arrow of causality must go only one direction.

Fortunately only God can see the future and he knows better than to mess things up.

If God knows the future and God is all powerful, then he would be able to make this the best of all possible worlds, by controlling all random events and the initial conditions. If he knows that the majority of people will reject him (the wide path) and that only a minority of people will have saving faith (the narrow gate) how can this be said to be the best of all possible worlds? If God did not create the best of all possible worlds for us, how can it be said that God loves humans?

It is the best that it can be.

You are kidding right? The best that it can be? If it was the best that it could be, God would never have let Satan loose on his creation to begin with! Now we have a true mess all because God didn't have the forethought or the planning skills to avoid it all. Either that or he just didn't care. You can't claim what you are claiming and then still insist he is loving, merciful and forgiving.

God would fail as a project manager, that's for sure.

To know that the majority of his creations he is going to burn in Hell, but not do anything to prevent it shows an unloving and merciless God and a God who knew he would ultimately refuse to forgive us, thus rejecting us.

It is like your local gas station, they can raise the price of each gallon expecting to get more revenue, but instead sales drop and so do profits. If they instead reduce prices in hopes of selling more, the amount of profit they lose is not offset by the increase in sales. So they are already at the point of maximum profits.

God, if he was real, would find an alternative to fossel fuels. Perhaps creating a new type of fuel that is cheap that everyone wants to buy, thus making a fortune, plus saving the environment and saving people money at the same time.

You seem to be putting so many limits on your God. If this is the best your God can do, then he certainly isn't all-powerful. I could think of many ways he could have the majority of his creations worshiping and believing in him that would not have any negative effects and I'm not even a divine being. In fact many of the ideas I have in mind would result in a much more peaceful, loving world.

God set a system up where he knew he would have to reject the majority of his creations. Even that shows a God who rejected us before we rejected him.

[olavisjo]

Fortunately only God can see the future and he knows better than to mess things up.

If he can see in the future, and there are mess ups, then I'd have to wonder why there are those that do not follow him. That seems like a big logistical error if your goal is to get as many followers as possible who love and respect you.

I have never seen anything that would give me the impression that God has a goal to get as many followers as possible.

It is the best that it can be.
It is like your local gas station, they can raise the price of each gallon expecting to get more revenue, but instead sales drop and so do profits. If they instead reduce prices in hopes of selling more, the amount of profit they lose is not offset by the increase in sales. So they are already at the point of maximum profits.

How is that so? Any passages supporting that claim? If not, then it's pretty much unconfirmed as to whether or not this is the best of all possible worlds. If it was, then I'd be quite surprised. I should imagine that God would be wiser than the average gas station manager, and able to turn a far better profit.

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

If all things work together for good to those that love him, then that is as good as it gets.

But what about those that do not love God? It would not be the best possible world for them.
Is there anything that God can do to include them? Is it possible for God to force them to love him or to trick them to love him? How would you like it if God did that to you? Would you be willing to let God change you into a person who loves God?

[olavisjo]

You are kidding right? The best that it can be? If it was the best that it could be, God would never have let Satan loose on his creation to begin with! Now we have a true mess all because God didn't have the forethought or the planning skills to avoid it all. Either that or he just didn't care. You can't claim what you are claiming and then still insist he is loving, merciful and forgiving.

God would fail as a project manager, that's for sure.

To know that the majority of his creations he is going to burn in Hell, but not do anything to prevent it shows an unloving and merciless God and a God who knew he would ultimately refuse to forgive us, thus rejecting us.

The hardest thing that I have had to learn is that I must do things God's way, even though my way is so much better.
Satan was let loose in the world when Adam sinned, but I am glad that Adam and Eve did sin, because if nobody would have sinned before me, I would have been the only one to fall.
As for hell, do not be concerned about it, nobody who is afraid of God throwing them into hell will have to go there. As the good book says, the fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.

God, if he was real, would find an alternative to fossil fuels. Perhaps creating a new type of fuel that is cheap that everyone wants to buy, thus making a fortune, plus saving the environment and saving people money at the same time.

You seem to be putting so many limits on your God. If this is the best your God can do, then he certainly isn't all-powerful. I could think of many ways he could have the majority of his creations worshiping and believing in him that would not have any negative effects and I'm not even a divine being. In fact many of the ideas I have in mind would result in a much more peaceful, loving world.

God set a system up where he knew he would have to reject the majority of his creations. Even that shows a God who rejected us before we rejected him.

God could send all the poor people, in the world, a divine credit card that never goes over the limit and people would love him, but that is not the kind of love he is looking for, and that is not the world I would want to live in either.
Again God is not going to reject anyone who does not want to be rejected.
But who are we to tell him what he can and can't do with those whom he has created.

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

[Munchskreem]

I have never seen anything that would give me the impression that God has a goal to get as many followers as possible.

Considering the Christian god loves us and has the desire for everyone to know and follow him, it would follow that an ideal world would have everybody following him and knowing him.

If all things work together for good to those that love him, then that is as good as it gets.

The question I'd ask is what the actual goal behind all of this is, and given that, does reality fit the optimal conditions for fulfilling that goal? In fact, that's something I've never been able to get a straight answer for. What WAS God's intentions for creating a few billion little animals on a speck of dust that was, compared to him, insignificant?

But what about those that do not love God? It would not be the best possible world for them.
Is there anything that God can do to include them? Is it possible for God to force them to love him or to trick them to love him?How would you like it if God did that to you? Would you be willing to let God change you into a person who loves God?

If eternal torture is the only other option, I wouldn't really mind. I'd probably be more thankful if he did that than if he threw me into a world where the odds of finding the one true faith were against me. The idea of being free to choose but doomed to failure if I choose incorrectly isn't just scary, it's downright sadistic.