The 144,000

[Checkpoint]

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?

Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

[JehovahsWitness]

It is the law of love that these sheep have written upon their hearts, and they do naturally the requirements of that law, and that is why they have also done good to even the least of Christ's brothers. Because they do that good - out of love - to ALL people.

I cannot disagree that Christ upon his return will judge people individually accordng to their heart condition. Or that this will be the case for everyone living on the earth . However, it is inaccurate to say all Christians will have been taken away from the earth prior to this Christ's return ; biblically only spirit anointed Christians are taken to heaven (compare 1 Thess 4:17 , John 14:3) and that none of those judged as sheep can be CHRISTIANS.

NO CHRISTIAN SHEEP?

Jesus illustration was given to highlight the individual nature if Christs judgement. We can be confident he will wisely judge those who, (depite the worldwide preaching campaign carried on by his people during the last days) stand before him ignorant of him and his brothers. That said, those that go beyond scripture pervert this illustration's basic teaching.

Looking closely at Jesus words, Jesus does not indicate "the sheep" do good to Christ's brother without knowing who they (the brothers)were. Notice the sheep do not ask Jesus "When did we do good to your brothers? When did we feed clothe or visit your brothers?"

To illustrate if one helps men and women without knowing the difference, one cannot know when you help a man and when, on the other hand you are helping a woman. You know you helped men and women but you cannot possiblyh know when specifically you helped each subgroup.

Since those judged as "sheep" don't ask for any details about Christ's brothers, what are we to deduce? That those that helped them, knew when they helped and they knew how and by implication who Christ's brother were. NOTE The judgement is not based on their knowing (or not knowing) but on how they treated the remaining ones of Christ’s spirit-anointed brothers on earth. The point however being one cannot from, the illustration catagorically state that they HAD to be ignorant of Christ's brother's.

CONCLUSION It is not wrong to imply that Christ will judge everyone (Christian or not) according to their heart condition. Even approved baptised Christians within Jehovah's earthly organisation will have to stand in judgement and be judged a "sheep" or a "goat" on that final day. But Jesus illustration was clearly given for a specific reason, to highlight the import he places in those that support his brothers. It is going beyond the things written to say that none of those supporters can be Christian or to imply they all HAD to be ignorant of the identity of Christ's brothers in order to qualifying as a sheep.

For more on this topic please see LINK below
viewtopic.php?p=1005934#p1005934

[onewithhim]

[Replying to tam in post #155]

I agree that when Christ returns THEN all will know what the truth is, and that is what he will set up his rulership for. During the Millennial Reign every last person who never knew the Truth will be taught the Truth.

Everything he will do is related to everlasting life on the earth. So the focus is always what is going on on the planet. This is where the problems started and this is where they will be resolved.

Now, if you answered my question previously, I apologize....I haven't found it. I asked you how can the people who are on the earth after Armageddon be UNrighteous,as you said, when the Scriptures say that "the righteous will inherit the earth and live on it forever" (Psalm 37:9,11, 29)?


.

[tam]

Peace to you,

It is the law of love that these sheep have written upon their hearts, and they do naturally the requirements of that law, and that is why they have also done good to even the least of Christ's brothers. Because they do that good - out of love - to ALL people.

I cannot disagree that Christ upon his return will judge people individually accordng to their heart condition.

As manifested by what they DO.

Or that this will be the case for everyone living on the earth .

The people of the nations (non-Christians) alive at the time Christ returns, sure.

However, it is inaccurate to say all Christians will have been taken away from the earth prior to this Christ's return ; biblically only spirit anointed Christians are taken to heaven (compare 1 Thess 4:17 , John 14:3)

Actually, it is in accurate to suggest that those verses do not refer to all Christians; just as it is inaccurate to suggest that some Christians are brothers of Christ and some Christians are not; or that some Christians are the Bride and some Christians are not; or that some Christians receive holy spirit and some Christians do not; or that some Christians are part of the Church (the Body of Christ) and some Christians are not. It is also inaccurate to suggest that some Christians are to obey all the commands of Christ (including eating and drinking the bread and wine that mean His flesh and blood) and that some (most) Christians are not permitted to do so.

From another thread:

Tam wrote:

From Ephesians 2:


For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.


Christ tore walls down; He did not put walls back up between His sheep, His flock. He did not teach that there are two groups of Christians, with two different callings/hopes, with some who are His brothers and some who are not...

(He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”)

.... He did not teach that some Christians are His Bride, the New Jerusalem, and other Christians are not; or that some will follow the Lamb wherever He goes; and some will not; or that some are spiritual Israel and some are not; or that only one group of Christians may partake of the bread and the wine/body and blood of Christ, and others may not; or that some Christians are part of the new covenant and others are not.


Christ - first and foremost - did not teach these things. The apostles also did not teach these things. Paul also did not teach these things.

viewtopic.php?p=1022994#p1022994

and that none of those judged as sheep can be CHRISTIANS.

NO CHRISTIAN SHEEP?

I have not said there are no Christian sheep. I said none of the sheep in the parable of the sheep and the goats are Christian (anointed with holy spirit).

Jesus illustration was given to highlight the individual nature if Christs judgement. We can be confident he will wisely judge those who, (depite the worldwide preaching campaign carried on by his people during the last days) stand before him ignorant of him and his brothers. That said, those that go beyond scripture pervert this illustration's basic teaching.

Looking closely at Jesus words, Jesus does not indicate "the sheep" do good to Christ's brother without knowing who they (the brothers)were.

He makes no statement on that either way. But the sheep are ignorant of the fact that they had done good to Christ.

Notice the sheep do not ask Jesus "When did we do good to your brothers? When did we feed clothe or visit your brothers?"

See above.

CONCLUSION It is not wrong to imply that Christ will judge everyone (Christian or not) according to their heart condition.

Actually this is not quite accurate. There is no judgment for one who is in Christ (whose faith is in Him). His blood covers us.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Then [Jesus] cried out, "Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me." John 12:44

"I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1John 5:13


Everyone else is invited into the Kingdom (or not) based upon their deeds (including how they have UNKNOWINGLY treated Christ).

For more on this topic please see LINK below
viewtopic.php?p=1005934#p1005934

The post in that link has been thoroughly responded to in the post which follows it here:


viewtopic.php?p=1005951#p1005951





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #155]

You said some things in post 155 that cannot be true. I'm not sure where you have addressed those in this post.

That being said:

Now, if you answered my question previously, I apologize....I haven't found it. I asked you how can the people who are on the earth after Armageddon be UNrighteous,as you said, when the Scriptures say that "the righteous will inherit the earth and live on it forever" (Psalm 37:9,11, 29)?

I apologize. I don't recall you asking that question. Regardless, I have not said there would be any unrighteous on the earth after Armageddon (the great battle of God that occurs at the end of the thousand years, when 'gog and magog' ride out across the breadth of the earth to attack the people God loves). The people (included in 'gog and magog') are on the earth during the thousand years, or they would not be present to be able to ride out across the breadth of the earth to attack the people God loves. But fire comes down from heaven and devours them instead. God fights that battle Himself, to protect the people He loves against those who are coming to attack and destroy them.

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Note: the city that God loves is New Jerusalem is it not? Note the location of New Jerusalem (in order for gog and magog to be able to surround her): she is on the earth!

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

As I've said a few times before, the New Jerusalem is not on the earth but in heaven, with its influence over the earth. Just as Jehovah said in the past that he would "be with" His people, yet He remained in heaven. There are many instances of that.

We are having some confusion here because you and I have different timelines concerning what happens and when. I believe that Armageddon occurs BEFORE the thousand-year reign of Christ, which differs from what you say. We will just have to agree to disagree about a lot of things, since we can't agree on when Armageddon occurs, and a few other relevant things.

(And I thought for sure that you said that all Christians will go to heaven to rule with Christ, and unrighteous people, non-Christians, would live on the earth. You didn't say that?)

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #165]

(And I thought for sure that you said that all Christians will go to heaven to rule with Christ, and unrighteous people, non-Christians, would live on the earth. You didn't say that?)

I did not.

Christians (aka anointed ones) reign with Christ in His Kingdom for a thousand years. New Jerusalem, the Bride, comes down out of heaven from God, and reigns upon the earth (Rev 21:2 and Rev 5:10). Though these ones have access to the spiritual realm as well, and may enter in before God (as king-priests), through Christ.

As well, being non-Christian does not mean that a person is unrighteous. That might not be what you meant, but just for the sake of clarification: some/many non-Christians (including atheists and theists) may (and will) also be declared righteous on the basis of their deeds. See sheep and goats parable as well as Romans 2:14-16.



Peace again to you!

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #165]

(And I thought for sure that you said that all Christians will go to heaven to rule with Christ, and unrighteous people, non-Christians, would live on the earth. You didn't say that?)

I did not.

Christians (aka anointed ones) reign with Christ in His Kingdom for a thousand years. New Jerusalem, the Bride, comes down out of heaven from God, and reigns upon the earth (Rev 21:2 and Rev 5:10). Though these ones have access to the spiritual realm as well, and may enter in before God (as king-priests), through Christ.

As well, being non-Christian does not mean that a person is unrighteous. That might not be what you meant, but just for the sake of clarification: some/many non-Christians (including atheists and theists) may (and will) also be declared righteous on the basis of their deeds. See sheep and goats parable as well as Romans 2:14-16.



Peace again to you!

I believe that "righteous" people are those that are worshipping Jehovah and following the example of Christ. Those that choose not to are and will always be unrighteous.

The parable of the sheep and goats shows people who aided Christ's brothers because they loved Jehovah and Jesus. That element of the situation is most important. It's not going to do anyone any good to do something nice for Christ's brothers if they don't like Him nor want to follow Him.

.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #165]

(And I thought for sure that you said that all Christians will go to heaven to rule with Christ, and unrighteous people, non-Christians, would live on the earth. You didn't say that?)

I did not.

Christians (aka anointed ones) reign with Christ in His Kingdom for a thousand years. New Jerusalem, the Bride, comes down out of heaven from God, and reigns upon the earth (Rev 21:2 and Rev 5:10). Though these ones have access to the spiritual realm as well, and may enter in before God (as king-priests), through Christ.

As well, being non-Christian does not mean that a person is unrighteous. That might not be what you meant, but just for the sake of clarification: some/many non-Christians (including atheists and theists) may (and will) also be declared righteous on the basis of their deeds. See sheep and goats parable as well as Romans 2:14-16.



Peace again to you!

I believe that "righteous" people are those that are worshipping Jehovah and following the example of Christ. Those that choose not to are and will always be unrighteous.

Those who are in Christ, in the new covenant, are covered by His blood. He is their covering; their sins are forgiven in Him.

But love also covers over a multitude of sins (1Peter 4:8), and there are some who obey the law NATURALLY (which law is love), doing NATURALLY the things required by the law (Paul speaks of this in Romans 2:13-16, and he states that these ones will be declared righteous). Some have love as their covering. These ones may also be invited into the Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom.

Just because these ones do not know Christ or His Father does not mean that they cannot be known/loved by Christ and His Father, based upon their deeds.

The parable of the sheep and goats shows people who aided Christ's brothers because they loved Jehovah and Jesus.

But this is not at all what the parable states.

That element of the situation is most important. It's not going to do anyone any good to do something nice for Christ's brothers if they don't like Him nor want to follow Him.

And what if they simply do not know Christ? Or have been misled, and yet still live according to the law (which is love)?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul makes it very clear that “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

And how many would that be?

In the following verses Paul also makes it very clear that we are the children of God

“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

What do you mean by "we" ? He certainly didn't mention your name (nor did he mention mine). So who is the "we" you are refering to ?

Paul in no way herein limits these promised blessings to only the 144,000.

He didn' t have to, God would reveal the exact number through the Apostle John in the Revelation.

[PinSeeker]

Paul makes it very clear that “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

And how many would that be?

An innumerable multitude. And this is confirmed explicitly in Genesis 15, which Paul would have been well aware of, and Revelation 7.

In the following verses Paul also makes it very clear that we are the children of God

“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

What do you mean by "we" ? He certainly didn't mention your name (nor did he mention mine). So who is the "we" you are refering to?

He means the same group Paul was referring to -- all those led by the Spirit... an innumerable multitude, past, present, and future together. Quite obviously.

Paul in no way herein limits these promised blessings to only the 144,000.

He didn't have to, God would reveal the exact number through the Apostle John [/color]in the Revelation.

Well, I agree that "he didn't have to," but he didn't have any allusions that the actual number would be countable by any man. Such are the stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore. And he conveyed this message very clearly to his hearers/readers, who include us today.

Grace and peace to you and all.