The 144,000

[Checkpoint]

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?

Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to post 6 by tam]

You wrote, "Most people who read the Bible are not born of God yet. They think all the numbers written in the Bible are literal numbers and that's why they come up with the wildest end time predictions I've ever heard."

"Tell me what you have heard that is so wild."

I call it verification. the number 144,000 is used in both Revelation 7 and verified in Revelation 14 so there is no misunderstanding. According to you, who decides if a number is literal or not? Are we to pick and choose that which is literal, or symbolic?

There are 15 million Jews worldwide today, a small remnant, let us say, that less than 1% are called to receive God's mark on their foreheads. That would be about 144,000.

Because of Adolph Hitler, almost half the Jews worldwide were murdered. Except for those in America, most of the others had no home, no material goods, no life, and no future. Yet God saved a remnant to return to their homeland, as prophesied. And Palestine after 1900 years is now called Israel as prophesied. If God did not mean 144,000 he would have said, "Many, a numerous number, a great many, or thousands and thousands. When he gives a specific number like 144,000, that's exactly the number of Jews that will be given the mark of God on their foreheads. .

[placebofactor]

5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

Doesn't this fly in the face that no earthly humans are free of sin?

How could 144,000 be blameless if no man is sinless?

Surely if they have sinned at all they can hardly be called blameless.

According to the verse above these men never even so much as told a lie.

There is a way. The "MANY" raised from the dead after Jesus was raised in Matthew 27 would have been raised, 1 Corinthians 15:52, "Incorruptible," and "immortal." Therefore, undefiled by women, and virgins, no guile or fault found in them, and the "FIRSTFRUITS UNTO THE FATHER AND TO THE LAMB." The Greek word for many here speaks of an innumerable number, as in how much grass is in a field? or leaves on a tree? Look the word up for yourself.

[JehovahsWitness]

There are 15 million Jews worldwide today...

Revelation is not speaking about literal Jews or Israeli nationale or even adhérents to Judaism, its refering to birn again CHRISTIANS , modern day Jews "on the inside".

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 6 by tam]

You wrote, "Most people who read the Bible are not born of God yet. They think all the numbers written in the Bible are literal numbers and that's why they come up with the wildest end time predictions I've ever heard."

"Tell me what you have heard that is so wild."

I call it verification. the number 144,000 is used in both Revelation 7 and verified in Revelation 14 so there is no misunderstanding. According to you, who decides if a number is literal or not? Are we to pick and choose that which is literal, or symbolic?

There are 15 million Jews worldwide today, a small remnant, let us say, that less than 1% are called to receive God's mark on their foreheads. That would be about 144,000.

Because of Adolph Hitler, almost half the Jews worldwide were murdered. Except for those in America, most of the others had no home, no material goods, no life, and no future. Yet God saved a remnant to return to their homeland, as prophesied. And Palestine after 1900 years is now called Israel as prophesied. If God did not mean 144,000 he would have said, "Many, a numerous number, a great many, or thousands and thousands. When he gives a specific number like 144,000, that's exactly the number of Jews that will be given the mark of God on their foreheads. .

So say you.

The "remnant" returned to their homeland from Babylon thousands of years ago, and that is what that "returning" issue is all about. The prophecy was concerning that returning.

The number "144,000" does indeed refer to the anointed of God, and they are the ones who are resurrected to heaven to reign with Christ. They do have the mark of God, so to say....the name of the Father and the name of the Lamb "written" on their foreheads. Doesn't the Bible say they will be from all nations? That is my understanding. (Revelation 5:9,10; Revelation 20:4 & 6)

[placebofactor]

[Replying to post 6 by tam]

You wrote, "Most people who read the Bible are not born of God yet. They think all the numbers written in the Bible are literal numbers and that's why they come up with the wildest end time predictions I've ever heard."

"Tell me what you have heard that is so wild."

I call it verification. the number 144,000 is used in both Revelation 7 and verified in Revelation 14 so there is no misunderstanding. According to you, who decides if a number is literal or not? Are we to pick and choose that which is literal, or symbolic?

There are 15 million Jews worldwide today, a small remnant, let us say, that less than 1% are called to receive God's mark on their foreheads. That would be about 144,000.

Because of Adolph Hitler, almost half the Jews worldwide were murdered. Except for those in America, most of the others had no home, no material goods, no life, and no future. Yet God saved a remnant to return to their homeland, as prophesied. And Palestine after 1900 years is now called Israel as prophesied. If God did not mean 144,000 he would have said, "Many, a numerous number, a great many, or thousands and thousands. When he gives a specific number like 144,000, that's exactly the number of Jews that will be given the mark of God on their foreheads. .

You wrote, "So say you."

No, that's what the Bible states as a fact. If it's not 144,000, then it's not two Witnesses, or 4 beasts, or seven horns. If you change one, then let's change them all. how about 5 beasts, or 8 horns? It's 144,000.

You wrote, "The "remnant" returned to their homeland from Babylon thousands of years ago,

True!

You wrote, "and that is what that "returning" issue is all about."

Since 1948, the Jews have returned to their homeland from over 100 different nations, millions of them. The Jews returned from Babylon in part beginning in 536 until Artaxerxes Longimanus made his last decree in 444 B.C. Only a few of the millions of Jews returned to Israel over that period.

You wrote, "The prophecy was concerning that returning."

Sorry, it's an end-time prophecy.

You wrote, "The number "144,000" does indeed refer to the anointed of God, and they are the ones who are resurrected to heaven to reign with Christ."

The angel who marks the 144,000 came from the east. Heaven does not have a Noth, South, East, or West. So, they are marked here on earth, and most likely they are called to Jerusalem to receive their mark of Identification and protection. This is before the Great Tribulation begins.

They are called to Mt. Zion. Mt. Zion is one of the hills on which Jerusalem stood. It's mentioned in 2 Samuel 5:6-9. King David captured Zion and called it the city of David. David also brought the Ark of the Covenant to Zion, and the hill became sacred. And that's where the angel is going to call the 144,000.

You wrote, "They do have the mark of God, so to say....the name of the Father and the name of the Lamb "written" on their foreheads.

Only the Father's mark on their foreheads.

Doesn't the Bible say they will be from all nations? That is my understanding. (Revelation 5:9,10;

Yes, in 1948, the Jews came from almost every nation of the world back to their homeland.

Verse 10, John's view is from heaven, he was taken up through the open door to the throne room of the Father. What he sees and hears is in heaven. Why from heaven? Because what John is seeing and hearing concerns future events, things that are yet to happen on earth. We call it prophesy.

You wrote, Revelation 20:4 & 6)

Revelation 24:4, takes place when the time of Jacob's trouble or the Great Tribulation ends, but before the 1000-year reign begins. Verse 6 also takes place just before the 1000-year reign of Christ begins.

[JehovahsWitness]

...If it's not 144,000, then it's not two Witnesses, or 4 beasts, or seven horns. If you change one, then let's change them all.

This "all or nothing" approach is not a productive with regard bible understanding. The rule should be "context is king", someting can be literal in one verse and symbolic in the next, so it is essential to assess the context of what we are reading.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


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If the book of Revelation is highly symbolic, what basis is there for taking the 144,000 as a literal number?
viewtopic.php?p=825066#p825066

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLICAL LITERALISM , THE 144, 000 and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[lifelongseeker]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]

IdK who the 144,000 could be. I'm still trying to figure out this.
If the Synagogue of Satan, sons of Satan (Christ's words) are jews, who/where are the inhabitants of the land (Amorites...) who are so evil even the children must be killed?

And how is it ok that our Old Testament was written by Masorete Jews 1000 years after they rejected Him? Jeremiah 8:8
See below for contemporary texts

Masoretes -"𝑀𝑎𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑇𝑟𝑎𝑑𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛". Masoretic Text - "𝑡𝑒𝑥𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑇𝑟𝑎𝑑𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛" (Jewish Tanakh, from 1008BC) is our Old Testament.
Jeremiah 8:8

**500AD Talmud, child sex, unspeakable evils.
**1008AD Masoretic Text, our Old Testamemt
**Miamonides,1135AD
Moses De León (Moshe ben Shem-Tov) born 1250AD, Jewish Kabbalist and presumably the author of the Sefer ha-Zohar (“Book of Splendour”), the most important work of Jewish mysticism;

These are quasi-satanic beliefs that form the foundations of the Chabad the leaders followers today.