GEHENNA, a place of fiery torture?

[onewithhim]

Jesus warned his disciples against suffering the judgment of Gehenna. Was he referring to a burning hell of everlasting torture? (Matthew 5:22)

The Greek word Ge'en na corresponds to the Hebrew geh veneh-Hin nom,---Valley of the sons of Hinnom. It became a garbage dump for Jerusalem, serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish, and anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes.

Many Bible translators haven rendered Ge' en na as "hell." (Matthew 5:22, KJV) Why is this? (Since Gehenna and hell are two different things.) Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, though, did not associate Gehenna with torture. He knew that the thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah. He referred to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah. God said: "They have built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." Burning people was not something that God can countenance, and He can't to this day. A good point is that the idea of torture for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that "the dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction that would come from God's judgment on the wicked. So...."Gehenna" means, similarly, the lake of fire in Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15.

Doesn't this sound more merciful than people being tortured in a never-ending fire? The fire symbolizes complete annihilation, just like what the fires in Gehenna did to trash and bodies of criminals.

[myth-one.com]

Let's see.
How does Hebrews 2:14 read? Does it say destroy the Devil, or do Destroy the Devil's power?
Does the Bible say the Lake of fire is the second death?

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


The same being, the devil, is being referred to in each of these two verses. In one verse, the devil is said to be tormented day and night forever. That being the case, the word "destroy" used in the other verse cannot mean to kill! One cannot be alive being tormented and dead at the same time.

Other translations of Hebrews 2:14 used to make powerless, ineffective, or impotent, as opposed to "destroy."

Does the Bible say the Lake of fire is the second death?

No, it does not.

Revelation 2o:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The second death is the wages for sin. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life are those that believe in Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins. These will have everlasting life and not suffer the second death.

Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and everlasting death. It is a real event.

The lake of fire is a lake of fire. The second death is the wages of sin. The second death is administered by being cast into the lake of fire.

[Capbook]

Let's see.
How does Hebrews 2:14 read? Does it say destroy the Devil, or do Destroy the Devil's power?
Does the Bible say the Lake of fire is the second death?

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


The same being, the devil, is being referred to in each of these two verses. In one verse, the devil is said to be tormented day and night forever. That being the case, the word "destroy" used in the other verse cannot mean to kill! One cannot be alive being tormented and dead at the same time.

Other translations of Hebrews 2:14 used to make powerless, ineffective, or impotent, as opposed to "destroy."

Does the Bible say the Lake of fire is the second death?

No, it does not.

Revelation 2o:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The second death is the wages for sin. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life are those that believe in Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins. These will have everlasting life and not suffer the second death.

Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and everlasting death. It is a real event.

The lake of fire is a lake of fire. The second death is the wages of sin. The second death is administered by being cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, it could be that one is tormented and would die, if Jesus did not heal the centurion's servant he would definitely die.(Mat 8:5-7)
A reply to your statement I colored blue above.

In reply to your interpretation in Rev 20:10, is Sodom and Gomorrah still on fire today?

Cherub an angelic being will be detroyed (put to death) by fire in Ezek 28:16.
And so is the devil, false prophets (spirit or physical bodied) will be destroyed (put to death.) (Heb 2:14)

Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Maybe we need to back up one quick second here:

God is immortal because He is a spirit.

I have never read this in the Bible, and I am sure you have not either, so while this is your personal opinion. it would not serve to be useful at this time.

John 4:24

God is a Spirit:

Your claim was,
God is immortal because He is a spirit.

The scripture at John 4:24 reads,
For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

The scriptures do not say God is immortal because he is a spirit.
I am asking you to support that statement with scripture.

You made that claim in order to claim that spirits are immortal, didn't you?
Well, no scriptures supports that.

Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the Tree of Life and living forever like God and the angels:

Here.

First - why did you add 'and the angels' here? When God says "Behold, the man is become as one of US...", that "US" refers to God and His Son.


Second - please note that it is eating from the Tree of Life that would have enabled Adam and Eve to live forever.


Genesis 3:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.




Peace again.

[tam]

Peace to you,

quote=John17_3 post_id=1157722 time=1728943797 user_id=23743]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Do you guys believe that literal fire (of some sort) comes down from heaven and devours 'them'? (From Revelation 20, after Satan misleads 'gog and magog'.)

If so, what is the issue with there being a "lake of fire" that can do the same? The lake of fire does indeed means the second death - that utter destruction would leave no possibility of a resurrection. There would be nothing left TO resurrect.


Peace again.

If the fire that came down from heaven and katesthió - literally ate them up, or consumed them, are they destroyed by the fire?
If they are destroyed by the fire that came from heaven, would that not mean that the lake of fire is not another fire designed to torment them, but rather represents their complete destruction, as in their second (permanent) death?

Yes, of course. I think everyone (in this most recent conversation) understands that the lake of fire completely destroys, rather than torments.

I think you would be surprised at how many do not agree with that.

I simply meant in this most recent conversation.

What I am asking is if you (and/or others) believe that the fire that came down from heaven is literal.

Peace again.

Revelation 20:9 - They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

If the fire is literal, it harms the breath of the earth - anything around the rebels, and I do not see that fitting well with scripture, since the 1,000 year reign of Christ restores paradise on earth, and God to ruin the earth with fire after restoring it, does not seem all together wise.

Or that fire only destroys those it is meant to destroy. Remember the fiery furnace from the book of Daniel? A guard was burned up from the heat, but Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not harmed at all. Not even their clothing.

It is God's execution of all the opposes. So that does not require literal fire. Simply destruction.

Execution by what means? We do have an actual example of fire being the means when destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. For what reason then should we assume that fire would not be used this time, when the passage literally states "FIRE came down from heaven and devoured them."

For the fire to be literal, something similar to what took place at Numbers 16:20-35, would have to take place, where the rebels are all separated and isolated from the righteous.

Perhaps - but perhaps the righteous are protected from that fire and need not fear it (like with the fiery furnace from Daniel.)

The next verse tells us 'Then the Devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'
The lake of fire signifies the second death. It is identified to John not to be a literal fire.

The lake of fire MEANS the second death.

Similar perhaps in the way that knowing God and His Son MEANS life?

I think we could also say 'is' instead of 'means' and come to the same understanding. Knowing God and His Son is life. Because to know them means we have eternal life. (not just know about, but truly know, have union with)

The lake of fire IS indeed the second death - because anyone cast into it dies (for all time.)


I will, however, confess that I may have lost track of the point of this discussion. Why are we discussing if it is a literal fire or not? Is it because there are many people who believe that those cast into the fire will burn in torment for all eternity? Whether the fire is literal or not, we can agree that the people cast into it are destroyed. They are not existing for all eternity in some kind of 'living hell'. In the same way that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah did not continue on in a 'living agony' after fire came down and destroyed those places.

We can believe Jesus angel, as oppose to anyone else.

We can believe Christ (Jaheshua) over anyone else, yes.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

When God says "Behold, the man is become as one of US...", that "US" refers to God and His Son.

Satan and probably angels under his supervision were also present as he was the ruler over the earth.

Second - please note that it is eating from the Tree of Life that would have enabled Adam and Eve to live forever.

That is correct. They were separated from the Tree of Life to prevent them from eating of it and becoming equal unto the angels. God did not want to risk creating more everlasting rebels.

[tam]

Peace to you,

When God says "Behold, the man is become as one of US...", that "US" refers to God and His Son.

Satan and probably angels under his supervision were also present as he was the ruler over the earth.

Present or not, that does not make them part of the 'us' in that statement. Us refers to God and His Son.

Second - please note that it is eating from the Tree of Life that would have enabled Adam and Eve to live forever.

That is correct. They were separated from the Tree of Life to prevent them from eating of it and becoming equal unto the angels.

They were separated from the Tree of Life to prevent them from eating from that Tree and living forever.

Please note: eating from that Tree is what grants a person eternal life, and that Tree of Life is Christ. We must eat of Him - the LIFE - in order to have eternal life:

Whoever who eats my flesh and drinks my life has eternal life - John 6:54.
I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life - John 14:6)

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowing good (life) and bad (death), death entered into them. To counter that, they would have needed to eat from the Tree of Life, from Christ, the Life. The 'antidote' to the 'poison' so to speak. God did not permit this though - in part, perhaps, for the reason that you listed yourself: "God did not want to risk creating more everlasting rebels." If their actions had had zero consequences, they would not have had a chance to learn better or to learn to act in love. They could simply have caused continuing sorrow to other living beings (including their own offspring), forever.

We do receive a new body as you have noted (one that has no sin or death in it like what we inherited from Adam and Eve.) But eating from the Tree of Life is what enables a person to live forever, and even the angels eat the Manna (that is Christ.) I don't know if an angel would die if they did not eat, but not eating does tend to make one weak(er.) If weakened enough, an angel might be able to be destroyed.


This should at least reveal that there IS a difference between God and His Son - and - angels/seraphs. God and His Son do not (need to) eat from the Tree of Life, the manna from heaven. Men and angels DO.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

Peace to you,

When God says "Behold, the man is become as one of US...", that "US" refers to God and His Son.

Satan and probably angels under his supervision were also present as he was the ruler over the earth.

Present or not, that does not make them part of the 'us' in that statement. Us refers to God and His Son.

Second - please note that it is eating from the Tree of Life that would have enabled Adam and Eve to live forever.

That is correct. They were separated from the Tree of Life to prevent them from eating of it and becoming equal unto the angels.

They were separated from the Tree of Life to prevent them from eating from that Tree and living forever.

Please note: eating from that Tree is what grants a person eternal life, and that Tree of Life is Christ. We must eat of Him - the LIFE - in order to have eternal life:

Whoever who eats my flesh and drinks my life has eternal life - John 6:54.
I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life - John 14:6)

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowing good (life) and bad (death), death entered into them. To counter that, they would have needed to eat from the Tree of Life, from Christ, the Life. The 'antidote' to the 'poison' so to speak. God did not permit this though - in part, perhaps, for the reason that you listed yourself: "God did not want to risk creating more everlasting rebels." If their actions had had zero consequences, they would not have had a chance to learn better or to learn to act in love. They could simply have caused continuing sorrow to other living beings (including their own offspring), forever.

We do receive a new body as you have noted (one that has no sin or death in it like what we inherited from Adam and Eve.) But eating from the Tree of Life is what enables a person to live forever, and even the angels eat the Manna (that is Christ.) I don't know if an angel would die if they did not eat, but not eating does tend to make one weak(er.) If weakened enough, an angel might be able to be destroyed.


This should at least reveal that there IS a difference between God and His Son - and - angels/seraphs. God and His Son do not (need to) eat from the Tree of Life, the manna from heaven. Men and angels DO.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The devil has everlasting life. Did he eat of the tree of life?

The Bible contains two Testaments, or wills, between God and Man.

Regarding humans, eating from the Tree of Life makes one an heir unto salvation. The names of the heirs are written in the Book of Life.

The heirs unto everlasting life receive their inheritance when born of the Spirit (God) as a spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The covenant will be probated at the Second Coming.

Everlasting life can only be attained by being born of the Spirit as a spirit.

Natural bodies are mortal, and spiritual bodies are immortal.

Also, note that the man Jesus was not present at the Genesis creation.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

When God says "Behold, the man is become as one of US...", that "US" refers to God and His Son.

Satan and probably angels under his supervision were also present as he was the ruler over the earth.

Present or not, that does not make them part of the 'us' in that statement. Us refers to God and His Son.

Second - please note that it is eating from the Tree of Life that would have enabled Adam and Eve to live forever.

That is correct. They were separated from the Tree of Life to prevent them from eating of it and becoming equal unto the angels.

They were separated from the Tree of Life to prevent them from eating from that Tree and living forever.

Please note: eating from that Tree is what grants a person eternal life, and that Tree of Life is Christ. We must eat of Him - the LIFE - in order to have eternal life:

Whoever who eats my flesh and drinks my life has eternal life - John 6:54.
I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life - John 14:6)

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowing good (life) and bad (death), death entered into them. To counter that, they would have needed to eat from the Tree of Life, from Christ, the Life. The 'antidote' to the 'poison' so to speak. God did not permit this though - in part, perhaps, for the reason that you listed yourself: "God did not want to risk creating more everlasting rebels." If their actions had had zero consequences, they would not have had a chance to learn better or to learn to act in love. They could simply have caused continuing sorrow to other living beings (including their own offspring), forever.

We do receive a new body as you have noted (one that has no sin or death in it like what we inherited from Adam and Eve.) But eating from the Tree of Life is what enables a person to live forever, and even the angels eat the Manna (that is Christ.) I don't know if an angel would die if they did not eat, but not eating does tend to make one weak(er.) If weakened enough, an angel might be able to be destroyed.


This should at least reveal that there IS a difference between God and His Son - and - angels/seraphs. God and His Son do not (need to) eat from the Tree of Life, the manna from heaven. Men and angels DO.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The devil has everlasting life. Did he eat of the tree of life?

He's an angel, isn't he? (Psalm 78:25)

The Bible contains two Testaments, or wills, between God and Man.

Regarding humans, eating from the Tree of Life makes one an heir unto salvation. The names of the heirs are written in the Book of Life.

The heirs unto everlasting life receive their inheritance when born of the Spirit (God) as a spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The covenant will be probated at the Second Coming.

Everlasting life can only be attained by being born of the Spirit as a spirit.

Natural bodies are mortal, and spiritual bodies are immortal.

Eating from the Tree of Life grants one eternal life.

Also, note that the man Jesus was not present at the Genesis creation.

The person who became flesh and dwelt among us for a while - the Son of God, the Chosen One of JAH - was present at the Genesis creation.

1 Corinthians 8:6, John 8:58, John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2; John 17:5

He is also the Tree of Life, the true manna from heaven from whom we must eat in order to live forever.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[John17_3]

[Replying to tam in post #154]

The lake of fire MEANS the second death.

Similar perhaps in the way that knowing God and His Son MEANS life?

I think we could also say 'is' instead of 'means' and come to the same understanding. Knowing God and His Son is life. Because to know them means we have eternal life. (not just know about, but truly know, have union with)

The lake of fire IS indeed the second death - because anyone cast into it dies (for all time.)


I will, however, confess that I may have lost track of the point of this discussion. Why are we discussing if it is a literal fire or not? Is it because there are many people who believe that those cast into the fire will burn in torment for all eternity? Whether the fire is literal or not, we can agree that the people cast into it are destroyed. They are not existing for all eternity in some kind of 'living hell'. In the same way that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah did not continue on in a 'living agony' after fire came down and destroyed those places.

No worries. We agree.
Some people, however, do not.

[Capbook]

[Replying to tam in post #154]

The lake of fire MEANS the second death.

Similar perhaps in the way that knowing God and His Son MEANS life?

I think we could also say 'is' instead of 'means' and come to the same understanding. Knowing God and His Son is life. Because to know them means we have eternal life. (not just know about, but truly know, have union with)

The lake of fire IS indeed the second death - because anyone cast into it dies (for all time.)


I will, however, confess that I may have lost track of the point of this discussion. Why are we discussing if it is a literal fire or not? Is it because there are many people who believe that those cast into the fire will burn in torment for all eternity? Whether the fire is literal or not, we can agree that the people cast into it are destroyed. They are not existing for all eternity in some kind of 'living hell'. In the same way that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah did not continue on in a 'living agony' after fire came down and destroyed those places.

No worries. We agree.
Some people, however, do not.

Yes, destroyed means being put to death. (Ezek 28:16)