Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Post by Yozavan »

Introduction: Was Galilee the intended epicenter of the Church?

Our oldest gospel anticipates a Galilean resurrection, Mark 16:1-8. I say anticipate, because an actual resurrection doesn't occur in our text. Verses 9-20 are considered a pious addendum.

Considerations for debate: Did Mark consider Galilee the epicenter of the Church via the resurrection?

Premise: Matthew and Mark have a Galilean resurrection, and by implication a Galilean epicenter for the Church . Luke has a Jerusalem resurrection, and by implication a Jerusalem epicenter for the Church.
A Jerusalem-till-Rome narrative is in Acts, where the baton is passed for the spiritual capital ( Historically so ).


Church of Antioch: Matthew has no reservations following Mark's Galilean resurrection, 28:7,16, and even casts shade on Jerusalem as the place where truth is despised, at the closure of his book, 28:11-15. Matthew seems to nod to the Church of Antioch at the beginning of Jesus's ministry, 4:24! Very telling, since Acts portays Antioch as being founded independently from Jerusalem's apostolic efforts, and the birthplace of the scornful word "Christian," 11:19-26. Its noteworthy that Antioch was where Judaism needed to be settled years later, Acts 15:1-34.

A Curious Jesus: Its plain to me that Matthew and Luke use Mark's gospel. (To each their own on the Synoptic Problem) Its equally plain that Romans to Revelation have no interest in the historical Jesus, only the heavenly Jesus. There's absolutely no interest in quoting Jesus to settle religious disputes, just theological proclamations and mystical interpretations of the Septuagint Old Testament. ( The exceptions are James, which no doubt uses the Sermon on the Mount for the layout of his book. 2 Peter 1:16, which reads like pious nostalgia of the transfiguration, and Jesus's " good confession before Pilate, " 1 Timothy 6:13. )

Conclusion: Was Mark actually preserving a Galilean epicenter and their particular Jesus? The Ebionites, ( Evyonim in Hebrew, the poor, destitute ) used Galilee as their epicenter, and the Hebrew Old Testament along with Matthew and James. They rejected the Septuagint, and the rest of the NT. Sources: Irenaeus, Origen, Eusebius. The Evyonim may well be " the poor " Peter asked Paul to remember, Galatians 2:10. Notice Paul's supposedly large financial offering he collected from gentile churches, Romans 15:22-33, 2 Corinthians 8:1-24, never actually got delivered, Acts 21:15-36. Also notice Paul was set up by James to be arrested! Factions are cut-throat. ( Go to the Temple brudda. Angry mob waiting :P )

Personal Note: The Evyonim were too poor to travel around spreading their message. They lived a life of poverty and austere asceticism, and seemed content to hunker down in Galilee waiting for the apocalypse. They seem to be as close to the historical Jesus as we can get, or at least the first sect that was a direct by-product of his.

Historical Jesus: I realize calling Jesus a historical person, is becoming increasingly contested among academics. Jesus may have been a mystic invention. Jewish rabbinical folklore often used mystic inventions, whereby fictitious people are used for teaching tools. The Talmud exhibits this out the ying yang! This would certainly explain gnosticism's obsession with him later on. I'm entirely open to this possibility.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Post by Yozavan »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:12 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm1) Why wouldn't it imply it? Luke\Acts had Jerusalem as the epicenter of the Church. The resurrection happened there, the commission, controversies were settle there. It clearly functioned as HQ. This would explain why Luke saw fit to change Galilee to Jerusalem. ( compare Mark 16:7 to Luke 24:6. I'm sure you deny Markan priority. So be it if you do. ) I am curious why Mark has a Galilean gathering for a resurrection. I don't think the locale was trivial.
There are different logically possible reasons why Luke and Mark/Matthew focus on different locales for what they share. You have the burden to support your claim for the reason they do so. (And I don’t deny Markan priority…it’s best to ask instead of assume).
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm2) The priests are engaged in a conspiracy to conceal the resurrection and spread misinformation. Religious authorities who disregard religious truth. Oh, the irony!
Clearly, Matthew is casting shade at the religious authorities of Judaism, but could it be more than that? I don't know.
Well, you need to have good reasons for thinking so to then use that idea to support your further claim that pits Galilee Christians against Jerusalem Christians.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm3) Never said they were competing. Jerusalem exercised authority over them years later. I simply stated that according to Acts Antioch was established without apostolic efforts. Reread my Church of Antioch section. I clearly reference Antioch's subordination to Jerusalem, when I reference Acts 15:1-34. Don't understand how you misread me. I think Matthew high fives Antioch in 4:24. I find this curious. I don't know what to make of the high five .
I’m sorry for misunderstanding you. So, what does this have to do with Galilean primacy?
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm4) Precisely, it is pure speculation. Am I not allowed to speculate?
You are allowed to think however you want, of course, but I’m analyzing your case for Markan Galilean primacy and pure speculation isn’t a good reason to come to a conclusion.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm5) Acts never mentions it being given. Seems odd . Would of been a good story. He was expected to bribe Felix though, Acts 24:26, which Paul did not. Felix knew he had lots of mammom. .
Why is that odd? It doesn’t say it wasn’t given either. And then you offer more pure speculation.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm6) Precisely, I am reading that into it. James sent Paul to the Temple. An angry mob is waiting for him. James never visits Paul's court proceedings. Seems fishy.
Your reading into things in a way that makes it “seem fishy” just isn’t rational support for a conclusion.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm7) Didn't understand your question. What sources say Christians and Ebionites argued about Jesus? What sources say Christians and Ebionites believed in a different Jesus? The church fathers only denounced them for denying the virgin birth. They were denouncing them retrospectively, since the Ebionites disappeared before they wrote of them! The Ebionites were a distant memory that Irenaeus, Origen and Eusebius conjectured about. Also, it is my speculation that the Ebionites were closer to what the historical Jesus taught. If he was ever a historical person at all!
I may be misremembering, but I thought they disagreed on Jesus’ divinity and the necessity of keeping the Jewish law. And, again, speculation, that isn’t in line with the historical sources about what the earliest Christians believed.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm8) The Christ myth isnt taken seriously, and rightfully so, but scholars are questioning the historicity of Jesus, certainly at my college. This isn't anything new, but its gaining wider support. More books have been published questioning the historicity of Jesus than before. That is the trend I reference. I don't view pastors as scholars. To each their own on the word academic. Maybe the trend will fizzle out. I think Jesus was a historical person, but I'm open to opposing views.

When I say mystic invention, this is not to be confused with the Christ myth. The later argues that Jesus was a theological construct of gnosticism, of which I think ridiculous. Mystic invention speculates that Jesus may have been a parabolic construct, ie., a fictional character used for parabolic or mystical reasons. A spiritual John Doe. Rabbinical mechanisms often utilize a fictional character for homiletic reasons. This is highly speculative and easily dismissible, but fascinating nonetheless. ( Very few even bother to consider a mystic invention. So don't expect to find tomes about it. Hopefully, it will get more attention in the future. )
I don’t consider pastors (qua pastors) as scholars, either. By “historicity” are you referring specifically to this “mystic invention” or a wider category under which mystic invention is one type? I’m all for being shown differently, but I don’t see this as being much of a trend. Now maybe that is because few are even bothering, but maybe it’s because there isn’t much of a strong case for it. I’m open to hearing all cases.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pmThank you for the push back though. I find Mark's Galilean Primacy fascinating. I think Mark's locale has ( or rather had ) significance. I don't think its trivial.
Yes, but the question is what is its significance.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pmI realize Christians will simply say: ok, they saw Jesus in Jerusalem, then went to Galilee and saw Jesus again, they returned to Jerusalem and Jerusalem became HQ, The End.
Well, Mark, our oldest gospel knows nothing of this!
This sounds like an argument from silence. Mark not addressing this issue doesn’t mean he knew nothing of it. Mark obviously would have known that the women went and told the other disciples (otherwise Christianity doesn’t get off the ground to where Mark is writing anything), but ends his story with the women saying nothing to anyone.
Ok, I see where you're going. Read post # 10. It was my reply to JW. Hopefully, it helps.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:37 pm
I'm nineteen years old, and I fear I might be inadvertently firing over your head.

You do well to keep personal remarks out of your posts. If you feel my posts are irrelevant you can ignore them or if they violate forum rules and you are so inclined report them.

To return to topic ...
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:37 pm
There are people who wonder if Mark has the resurrection take place in Galilee to provide precedence for Galilee being the epicenter of the Church.
The gospel of Mark does not have Jesus resurrection take place in Galilee.

None of the Gospels depict the actual resurrection but have a risen Christ appear in various locations at various times including in Galilee.

The significance of these sitings is, of course debatable.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #13

Post by Yozavan »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:49 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:37 pm
I'm nineteen years old, and I fear I might be inadvertently firing over your head.

You do well to keep personal remarks out of your posts. If you feel my posts are irrelevant you can ignore them or if they violate forum rules and you are so inclined report them.

To return to topic ...
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:37 pm
There are people who wonder if Mark has the resurrection take place in Galilee to provide precedence for Galilee being the epicenter of the Church.
The gospel of Mark does not have Jesus resurrection take place in Galilee.

None of the Gospels depict the actual resurrection but have a risen Christ appear in various locations at various times including in Galilee.

The significance of these sitings is, of course debatable.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
I apologize for any perceived slight. I was genuinely attempting to find a bridge. If I wish to disclose my age that's my affair. If you're offended at my age reveal, feel free to block me.

I don't actually know what you're discussing. So I'll leave it at that
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:08 pm

I don't actually know what you're discussing.
Was there a part of "The gospel of Mark" that has caused you some confusion?
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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #15

Post by Yozavan »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:14 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:08 pm

I don't actually know what you're discussing.
Was there a part of "The gospel of Mark" that has caused you some confusion?
Sorry, I don't understand what you're discussing. Could you elaborate?
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:15 pm
Sorry, I don't understand what you're discussing. Could you elaborate?
Certainly:

The gospel of Mark does not have Jesus resurrection take place in Galilee.

None of the Gospels depict the actual resurrection but have a risen Christ appear in various locations at various times including in Galilee.

The significance of these sitings is, of course debatable.



If there are any expressions or sentences you have difficulty understandibg please just quote them back to me and I will try and rephrase in simpler terms.
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #17

Post by Yozavan »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:20 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:15 pm
Sorry, I don't understand what you're discussing. Could you elaborate?
Certainly:

The gospel of Mark does not have Jesus resurrection take place in Galilee.

None of the Gospels depict the actual resurrection but have a risen Christ appear in various locations at various times including in Galilee.

The significance of these sitings is, of course debatable.



If there are any expressions or sentences you have difficulty understandibg please just quote them back to me and I will try and rephrase in simpler terms.
Sorry sir, but I simply cannot understand what you're attempting to communicate. You're saying Mark's narrative leaves Jesus dead?
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #18

Post by Yozavan »

Well, I concur. Jesus died and stayed dead, but I'm not a theologian.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:24 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:20 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:15 pm
Sorry, I don't understand what you're discussing. Could you elaborate?
Certainly:

The gospel of Mark does not have Jesus resurrection take place in Galilee.

None of the Gospels depict the actual resurrection but have a risen Christ appear in various locations at various times including in Galilee.

The significance of these sitings is, of course debatable.



If there are any expressions or sentences you have difficulty understandibg please just quote them back to me and I will try and rephrase in simpler terms.
Sorry sir, but I simply cannot understand what you're attempting to communicate. You're saying Mark's narrative leaves Jesus dead?

No. Let me try and make it simpler for you...

A resurrection biblically is when a dead person comes back to life. There are several passages in the bible that depict the moment when dead people comes back to life. In the case of Jesus there is no description of that precise moment. All we have are reports of people meeting him after the event.

Are you with me so far? Do you understand the difference between: " I saw Jesus alive again : and "I saw Jesus come back to life"?

Now, the bible reports people saying they saw Jesus alive (again) after his execution. And this at various locations.

Is any of the above unclear to you?
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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #20

Post by Yozavan »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:48 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:24 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:20 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:15 pm
Sorry, I don't understand what you're discussing. Could you elaborate?
Certainly:

The gospel of Mark does not have Jesus resurrection take place in Galilee.

None of the Gospels depict the actual resurrection but have a risen Christ appear in various locations at various times including in Galilee.

The significance of these sitings is, of course debatable.



If there are any expressions or sentences you have difficulty understandibg please just quote them back to me and I will try and rephrase in simpler terms.
Sorry sir, but I simply cannot understand what you're attempting to communicate. You're saying Mark's narrative leaves Jesus dead?

No. Let me try and make it simpler for you...

A resurrection biblically is when a dead person comes back to life. There are several passages in the bible that depict the moment when dead people comes back to life. In the case of Jesus there is no description of that precise moment. All we have are reports of people meeting him after the event.

Are you with me so far? Do you understand the difference between: " I saw Jesus alive again : and "I saw Jesus come back to life"?

Now, the bible reports people saying they saw Jesus alive (again) after his execution. And this at various locations.

Is any of the above unclear to you?
Sorry sir, are you attempting to communicate something pertinent to my debate: Mark's Galilean Primacy? What are you trying to communicate?
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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