Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Introduction: Was Galilee the intended epicenter of the Church?

Our oldest gospel anticipates a Galilean resurrection, Mark 16:1-8. I say anticipate, because an actual resurrection doesn't occur in our text. Verses 9-20 are considered a pious addendum.

Considerations for debate: Did Mark consider Galilee the epicenter of the Church via the resurrection?

Premise: Matthew and Mark have a Galilean resurrection, and by implication a Galilean epicenter for the Church . Luke has a Jerusalem resurrection, and by implication a Jerusalem epicenter for the Church.
A Jerusalem-till-Rome narrative is in Acts, where the baton is passed for the spiritual capital ( Historically so ).


Church of Antioch: Matthew has no reservations following Mark's Galilean resurrection, 28:7,16, and even casts shade on Jerusalem as the place where truth is despised, at the closure of his book, 28:11-15. Matthew seems to nod to the Church of Antioch at the beginning of Jesus's ministry, 4:24! Very telling, since Acts portays Antioch as being founded independently from Jerusalem's apostolic efforts, and the birthplace of the scornful word "Christian," 11:19-26. Its noteworthy that Antioch was where Judaism needed to be settled years later, Acts 15:1-34.

A Curious Jesus: Its plain to me that Matthew and Luke use Mark's gospel. (To each their own on the Synoptic Problem) Its equally plain that Romans to Revelation have no interest in the historical Jesus, only the heavenly Jesus. There's absolutely no interest in quoting Jesus to settle religious disputes, just theological proclamations and mystical interpretations of the Septuagint Old Testament. ( The exceptions are James, which no doubt uses the Sermon on the Mount for the layout of his book. 2 Peter 1:16, which reads like pious nostalgia of the transfiguration, and Jesus's " good confession before Pilate, " 1 Timothy 6:13. )

Conclusion: Was Mark actually preserving a Galilean epicenter and their particular Jesus? The Ebionites, ( Evyonim in Hebrew, the poor, destitute ) used Galilee as their epicenter, and the Hebrew Old Testament along with Matthew and James. They rejected the Septuagint, and the rest of the NT. Sources: Irenaeus, Origen, Eusebius. The Evyonim may well be " the poor " Peter asked Paul to remember, Galatians 2:10. Notice Paul's supposedly large financial offering he collected from gentile churches, Romans 15:22-33, 2 Corinthians 8:1-24, never actually got delivered, Acts 21:15-36. Also notice Paul was set up by James to be arrested! Factions are cut-throat. ( Go to the Temple brudda. Angry mob waiting :P )

Personal Note: The Evyonim were too poor to travel around spreading their message. They lived a life of poverty and austere asceticism, and seemed content to hunker down in Galilee waiting for the apocalypse. They seem to be as close to the historical Jesus as we can get, or at least the first sect that was a direct by-product of his.

Historical Jesus: I realize calling Jesus a historical person, is becoming increasingly contested among academics. Jesus may have been a mystic invention. Jewish rabbinical folklore often used mystic inventions, whereby fictitious people are used for teaching tools. The Talmud exhibits this out the ying yang! This would certainly explain gnosticism's obsession with him later on. I'm entirely open to this possibility.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Considerations for debate: Did Mark consider Galilee the epicenter of the Church via the resurrection?
He doesn't say so, therefore I have no reason to think so.
Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Jewish rabbinical folklore often used mystic inventions, whereby fictitious people are used for teaching tools.
And how you know that?

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Introduction: Was Galilee the intended epicenter of the Church?

JOHN 4:24

"Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. ... 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth
Christianity would have no physical location as it's centre of worship. Or was to be a global spiritual nation whose center was heavenly.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Post by Yozavan »

1213 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 5:31 am
Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Considerations for debate: Did Mark consider Galilee the epicenter of the Church via the resurrection?
He doesn't say so, therefore I have no reason to think so.


Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Jewish rabbinical folklore often used mystic inventions, whereby fictitious people are used for teaching tools.
And how you know that?
Why does Mark have a Galilean gathering for a resurrection appearance? What was Mark's intentions for having the disciples leave Jerusalem and go back to Galilee to witness the resurrection? You don't understand the premise of my debate.

I was raised a Haredi Jew and studied Talmud at a yeshiva for 3 years :P . The Talmud uses fictional characters repeatedly. Its the spirit of Talmud :P. The discussion is what matters, the characters in it are almost always fictional. Fictional angels, villions, and fools. Its a standard teaching technique.

My parents switched to Reform when I was 15, but I still have my grandfather's Steinsaltz Talmud. Its 22 volumes of the Babylonian Talmud with commentaries. I'm randomly grabbing a volume right now. A rabbi is is said to have seen Elijah. Elijah explains how Messiah will have white teeth. The dude is confused, so he asks to see the son of David. The son of David appears and shows his white teeth. Then he remembers Genesis 49:12 " his teeth are whiter than milk. " Not even an ultra orthodox knucklehead believes this actually happened!

Here's another, a rabbi said unnatural sex ( anal ) with a virgin will not besmirch her chastity! The rest condemned him. He was a fictitious rabbi, but his foolish statement triggered a discussion. The discussions are what matters, the characters and scenarios are fictional. Both these stories are from the 1st century BCE.

The Talmud essentially has two genres. Legal and mystical. Both use fictional people and scenarios to get a discussion going. The first story I used was mystical. It triggers a discussion about how Messiah will be peaceful. A smiling Messiah. Smiling because of the peace he brings to the world etc. The second story was a legal one about sexual purity. Both rabbis were fictional, the scenarios in both cases were fictional. Do you understand?

If you think i'm lying about rabbis using fictional people and scenarios for sermons :P :P :P :P :P
Last edited by Yozavan on Mon Jul 15, 2024 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Post by Yozavan »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:55 am
Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Introduction: Was Galilee the intended epicenter of the Church?

JOHN 4:24

"Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. ... 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth
Christianity would have no physical location as it's centre of worship. Or was to be a global spiritual nation whose center was heavenly.
The debate is about Mark's Galilean gathering for a resurrection appearance. What was Mark's intention for having the disciples leave Jerusalem and go back to Galilee to witness the resurrection? You don't understand the premise of my debate.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to Yozavan in post #1]

I see no reason to think Mark considered Galilee as a competing epicenter to Jerusalem. You’ve seemed to make quite a few jumps, but perhaps you can show them to not actually be that far. Could you support these better:

1. Why does a Galilean (or Jerusalem) resurrection imply a Galilean (or Jerusalem) epicenter for the Church?

2. Why does including the guards’ report to the chief priests say anything about the Jerusalem Christians being a place where the truth is despised?

3. Why do you think Jerusalem and Antioch are competing when those texts you pointed to show them holding out the hand of fellowship to each other?

4. What, beyond purely ad hoc speculation is there to associate the poor of Galatians 2:10 solely with the Galilean Ebionites?

5. Why do you think the offering to the poor in Jerusalem didn’t get delivered? Which verse(s) showed that?

6. How does that text show James setting Paul up? It seems you are just reading that into it.

7. Why believe the Ebionites are closer to the historical Jesus when all the earliest Christian sources we have disagree with them about who Jesus was?

8. Why do you think Jesus’ historicity is becoming increasingly contested among academics? Which academics? I wasn’t even allowed to pursue a dissertation on Jesus mythicism because it wasn’t taken seriously by the academic world.

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Post by Yozavan »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 4:53 pm [Replying to Yozavan in post #1]

I see no reason to think Mark considered Galilee as a competing epicenter to Jerusalem. You’ve seemed to make quite a few jumps, but perhaps you can show them to not actually be that far. Could you support these better:

1. Why does a Galilean (or Jerusalem) resurrection imply a Galilean (or Jerusalem) epicenter for the Church?

2. Why does including the guards’ report to the chief priests say anything about the Jerusalem Christians being a place where the truth is despised?

3. Why do you think Jerusalem and Antioch are competing when those texts you pointed to show them holding out the hand of fellowship to each other?

4. What, beyond purely ad hoc speculation is there to associate the poor of Galatians 2:10 solely with the Galilean Ebionites?

5. Why do you think the offering to the poor in Jerusalem didn’t get delivered? Which verse(s) showed that?

6. How does that text show James setting Paul up? It seems you are just reading that into it.

7. Why believe the Ebionites are closer to the historical Jesus when all the earliest Christian sources we have disagree with them about who Jesus was?

8. Why do you think Jesus’ historicity is becoming increasingly contested among academics? Which academics? I wasn’t even allowed to pursue a dissertation on Jesus mythicism because it wasn’t taken seriously by the academic world.
1) Why wouldn't it imply it? Luke\Acts had Jerusalem as the epicenter of the Church. The resurrection happened there, the commission, controversies were settle there. It clearly functioned as HQ. This would explain why Luke saw fit to change Galilee to Jerusalem. ( compare Mark 16:7 to Luke 24:6. I'm sure you deny Markan priority. So be it if you do. ) I am curious why Mark has a Galilean gathering for a resurrection. I don't think the locale was trivial.

2) The priests are engaged in a conspiracy to conceal the resurrection and spread misinformation. Religious authorities who disregard religious truth. Oh, the irony!
Clearly, Matthew is casting shade at the religious authorities of Judaism, but could it be more than that? I don't know. :P

3) Never said they were competing. Jerusalem exercised authority over them years later. I simply stated that according to Acts Antioch was established without apostolic efforts. Reread my Church of Antioch section. I clearly reference Antioch's subordination to Jerusalem, when I reference Acts 15:1-34. Don't understand how you misread me. I think Matthew high fives Antioch in 4:24. I find this curious. I don't know what to make of the high five :x.


4) Precisely, it is pure speculation. Am I not allowed to speculate? :P

5) Acts never mentions it being given. Seems odd :shock:. Would of been a good story. He was expected to bribe Felix though, Acts 24:26, which Paul did not. Felix knew he had lots of mammom. :P.

6) Precisely, I am reading that into it. James sent Paul to the Temple. An angry mob is waiting for him. James never visits Paul's court proceedings. Seems fishy. :shock:


7) Didn't understand your question. What sources say Christians and Ebionites argued about Jesus? What sources say Christians and Ebionites believed in a different Jesus? The church fathers only denounced them for denying the virgin birth. They were denouncing them retrospectively, since the Ebionites disappeared before they wrote of them! The Ebionites were a distant memory that Irenaeus, Origen and Eusebius conjectured about. Also, it is my speculation that the Ebionites were closer to what the historical Jesus taught. If he was ever a historical person at all!

8) The Christ myth isnt taken seriously, and rightfully so, but scholars are questioning the historicity of Jesus, certainly at my college. This isn't anything new, but its gaining wider support. More books have been published questioning the historicity of Jesus than before. That is the trend I reference. I don't view pastors as scholars. To each their own on the word academic. Maybe the trend will fizzle out. I think Jesus was a historical person, but I'm open to opposing views.

When I say mystic invention, this is not to be confused with the Christ myth. The later argues that Jesus was a theological construct of gnosticism, of which I think ridiculous. Mystic invention speculates that Jesus may have been a parabolic construct, ie., a fictional character used for parabolic or mystical reasons. A spiritual John Doe. Rabbinical mechanisms often utilize a fictional character for homiletic reasons. This is highly speculative and easily dismissible, but fascinating nonetheless. ( Very few even bother to consider a mystic invention. So don't expect to find tomes about it. Hopefully, it will get more attention in the future. )

Thank you for the push back though. I find Mark's Galilean Primacy fascinating. I think Mark's locale has ( or rather had ) significance. I don't think its trivial. :P


I realize Christians will simply say: ok, they saw Jesus in Jerusalem, then went to Galilee and saw Jesus again, they returned to Jerusalem and Jerusalem became HQ, The End.
Well, Mark, our oldest gospel knows nothing of this!
Last edited by Yozavan on Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 3:58 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:55 am
Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Introduction: Was Galilee the intended epicenter of the Church?

JOHN 4:24

"Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. ... 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth
Christianity would have no physical location as it's centre of worship. Or was to be a global spiritual nation whose center was heavenly.
The debate is about Mark's Galilean gathering for a resurrection appearance.
Then why did you ask...
Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Was Galilee the intended epicenter of the Church?

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 1:59 pm
Why does Mark have a Galilean gathering for a resurrection appearance?
Probably because he believed and/or had testimony that a resurrected Jesus appeared in Galilee.



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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 77#p927277

Where did the ascension take place?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p926561
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm1) Why wouldn't it imply it? Luke\Acts had Jerusalem as the epicenter of the Church. The resurrection happened there, the commission, controversies were settle there. It clearly functioned as HQ. This would explain why Luke saw fit to change Galilee to Jerusalem. ( compare Mark 16:7 to Luke 24:6. I'm sure you deny Markan priority. So be it if you do. ) I am curious why Mark has a Galilean gathering for a resurrection. I don't think the locale was trivial.
There are different logically possible reasons why Luke and Mark/Matthew focus on different locales for what they share. You have the burden to support your claim for the reason they do so. (And I don’t deny Markan priority…it’s best to ask instead of assume).
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm2) The priests are engaged in a conspiracy to conceal the resurrection and spread misinformation. Religious authorities who disregard religious truth. Oh, the irony!
Clearly, Matthew is casting shade at the religious authorities of Judaism, but could it be more than that? I don't know.
Well, you need to have good reasons for thinking so to then use that idea to support your further claim that pits Galilee Christians against Jerusalem Christians.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm3) Never said they were competing. Jerusalem exercised authority over them years later. I simply stated that according to Acts Antioch was established without apostolic efforts. Reread my Church of Antioch section. I clearly reference Antioch's subordination to Jerusalem, when I reference Acts 15:1-34. Don't understand how you misread me. I think Matthew high fives Antioch in 4:24. I find this curious. I don't know what to make of the high five .
I’m sorry for misunderstanding you. So, what does this have to do with Galilean primacy?
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm4) Precisely, it is pure speculation. Am I not allowed to speculate?
You are allowed to think however you want, of course, but I’m analyzing your case for Markan Galilean primacy and pure speculation isn’t a good reason to come to a conclusion.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm5) Acts never mentions it being given. Seems odd . Would of been a good story. He was expected to bribe Felix though, Acts 24:26, which Paul did not. Felix knew he had lots of mammom. .
Why is that odd? It doesn’t say it wasn’t given either. And then you offer more pure speculation.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm6) Precisely, I am reading that into it. James sent Paul to the Temple. An angry mob is waiting for him. James never visits Paul's court proceedings. Seems fishy.
Your reading into things in a way that makes it “seem fishy” just isn’t rational support for a conclusion.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm7) Didn't understand your question. What sources say Christians and Ebionites argued about Jesus? What sources say Christians and Ebionites believed in a different Jesus? The church fathers only denounced them for denying the virgin birth. They were denouncing them retrospectively, since the Ebionites disappeared before they wrote of them! The Ebionites were a distant memory that Irenaeus, Origen and Eusebius conjectured about. Also, it is my speculation that the Ebionites were closer to what the historical Jesus taught. If he was ever a historical person at all!
I may be misremembering, but I thought they disagreed on Jesus’ divinity and the necessity of keeping the Jewish law. And, again, speculation, that isn’t in line with the historical sources about what the earliest Christians believed.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pm8) The Christ myth isnt taken seriously, and rightfully so, but scholars are questioning the historicity of Jesus, certainly at my college. This isn't anything new, but its gaining wider support. More books have been published questioning the historicity of Jesus than before. That is the trend I reference. I don't view pastors as scholars. To each their own on the word academic. Maybe the trend will fizzle out. I think Jesus was a historical person, but I'm open to opposing views.

When I say mystic invention, this is not to be confused with the Christ myth. The later argues that Jesus was a theological construct of gnosticism, of which I think ridiculous. Mystic invention speculates that Jesus may have been a parabolic construct, ie., a fictional character used for parabolic or mystical reasons. A spiritual John Doe. Rabbinical mechanisms often utilize a fictional character for homiletic reasons. This is highly speculative and easily dismissible, but fascinating nonetheless. ( Very few even bother to consider a mystic invention. So don't expect to find tomes about it. Hopefully, it will get more attention in the future. )
I don’t consider pastors (qua pastors) as scholars, either. By “historicity” are you referring specifically to this “mystic invention” or a wider category under which mystic invention is one type? I’m all for being shown differently, but I don’t see this as being much of a trend. Now maybe that is because few are even bothering, but maybe it’s because there isn’t much of a strong case for it. I’m open to hearing all cases.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pmThank you for the push back though. I find Mark's Galilean Primacy fascinating. I think Mark's locale has ( or rather had ) significance. I don't think its trivial.
Yes, but the question is what is its significance.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pmI realize Christians will simply say: ok, they saw Jesus in Jerusalem, then went to Galilee and saw Jesus again, they returned to Jerusalem and Jerusalem became HQ, The End.
Well, Mark, our oldest gospel knows nothing of this!
This sounds like an argument from silence. Mark not addressing this issue doesn’t mean he knew nothing of it. Mark obviously would have known that the women went and told the other disciples (otherwise Christianity doesn’t get off the ground to where Mark is writing anything), but ends his story with the women saying nothing to anyone.

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Post by Yozavan »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:18 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 3:58 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:55 am
Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Introduction: Was Galilee the intended epicenter of the Church?

JOHN 4:24

"Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. ... 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth
Christianity would have no physical location as it's centre of worship. Or was to be a global spiritual nation whose center was heavenly.
The debate is about Mark's Galilean gathering for a resurrection appearance.
Then why did you ask...
Yozavan wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:15 am Was Galilee the intended epicenter of the Church?
This is a hypothetical debate about Mark's Galilean primacy. As such it is speculative by design. People who espouse Markan priority might find this discussion palatable. Fundamentalists will probably find this discussion unsettling, or even offensive altogether.

I'm nineteen years old, and I fear I might be inadvertently firing over your head.

There is a gospel called Mark. There are people who think it was the first gospel written. There is a distinct possibility that this will offend religious people, who believe Mark was not written first. Whether hell awaits people who believe Mark was written first, I wouldn't dare to presume. I'm not a theologian.

There is a gospel called Matthew. There is a gospel called Luke. There are people who think Matthew and Luke used Mark to write their gospels. They call this Markan priority. There is a distinct possibility that this will offend religious people. Whether hell awaits people who believe in Markan priority, I wouldn't dare to presume. I'm not a theologian.

There are people who wonder why Mark has the disciples go back to Galilee to witness Jesus's resurrection. There is a distinct possibility that this will offend religious people. Whether hell awaits those who wonder why Mark has the disciples go to Galilee, I wouldn't dare to presume. I'm not a theologian.


There are people who believe Mark ends his gospel at 16:8. There is a distinct possibility that this will offend religious people. Whether hell awaits those who believe Mark ends his gospel at 16:8, I wouldn't dare to presume. I'm not a theologian.

There are people who believe that Luke and Acts have the resurrection take place in Jerusalem, not Galilee. There is a distinct possibility that this will offend religious people. Whether hell awaits those who believe that Luke and Acts have the resurrection take place in Jerusalem and not Galilee, I wouldn't dare to presume. I'm not a theologian.

There are people who believe that Acts gives Jerusalem precedence, since Christian disputes are said to be settled there. There is a distinct possibility that this will offend religious people. Whether hell awaits those who believe that Acts gives Jerusalem precedence, I wouldn't dare to presume. I'm not a theologian.

There are people who wonder if Luke has the resurrection take place in Jerusalem, to provide a reason why Jerusalem was the epicenter of the Church in Acts. There is a distinct possibility that this will offend religious people. Whether hell awaits those who believe that Luke has the resurrection take place in Jerusalem to explain its precedence in the Church, i wouldn't dare to presume. I'm not a theologian.

There are people who wonder if Mark has the resurrection take place in Galilee to provide precedence for Galilee being the epicenter of the Church. There is a distinct possibility that this will offend religious people. Whether hell awaits those who wonder if Mark has the resurrection take place in Galilee to provide precedence for it being the epicenter of the Church, I wouldn't dare to presume. I'm not a theologian.

The Ebionites used Galilee as the epicenter for their church. There is a distinct possibility that this will offend religious people. Whether hell awaits the Ebionites who used Galilee as the epicenter for their church, I wouldn't dare to presume. I'm not a theologian.

Welp, that's the gist of it.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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