Who does the rejecting? God or us?

[OnceConvinced]

In another thread this comment was made and I believe it is very typical of many Christians:

but when we reject the only means of salvation God could offer us, we are pretty much spitting in God's face and telling him that we don't need his help.

Christians seem to insist that even though we don't believe in something, that we are spitting in the face of that something if we don't believe in it. I guess I'm spitting in the face of the fairies in my garden that I don't believe exist. And perhaps I'm spitting in the face of the Lochness Monster or Hare Krishna, or Allah etc etc etc.

The question that come to mind now is who does the rejecting exactly? The bible seems to suggest God, not us.

Matthew 22:14: For many are called, but few are chosen."

This suggests here that God chooses who are going to be his followers. Therefore those who he does not choose are rejected by him.

Matthew: 7: 21-24
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Quite clearly here, it is God doing the rejecting sending us away from him, not the other way around. And not only that he is rejecting those who claim to love him and follow him.

Mat 25:41-43 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'

Here we have Christ's rejection of those who were simply guilty of doing nothing.

Matt 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Many Christians quote this one to support their argument that it is man who rejects Christ not the other way around. But to me this clearly shows Christ's rejection of us. He is automatically catergorising anyone that doesn't follow him as being against him. If any other human said something like that, we would see it as irrational and downright paranoid. We would scoff. But for some reason, because Jesus said it, it's somehow reasonable.

And finally, the ultimate rejection from God:

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This quite clearly refutes any notion that we choose to go to Hell or that somehow we will end up there by default ie, if we're not saved we're there automatically. Christ quite cleary commands his angels (rather than doing his own dirty work) to round up all sinners and have them thrown into Hell. We will be rejected, just like weeds.

I could go on and list many more scriptures that show God's rejection of us due to certain actions on our part, but I won't. I think I've posted enough.

So, seeing the above scriptures, what can you conclude? Who does the rejecting? Us or God?

[I AM ALL I AM]

Before we are born, God already knows if we will reject him or not so he predestines our life based on his foreknowledge.

Who told you this ???

Romans 8:28-30

Or are you claiming to know the mind of 'God' ???

No.

Or has 'God' spoken to you and told you 'His' thoughts ???

No.

How do you reconcile the fact that the bible states that 'God' gave man free will with the fact that free will and predestination are mutually exclusive ???

You don't need to tell me that there is a bit of a contradiction there, I can see it myself but when you become a Christian you develop a high tolerance for incongruity.

What proof do you have that backs up your statement ???

Romans 8:28-30

G'day Olavisjo.

So, firstly, no one told you, you read it in a book that you do not know the author of. Do you as easily believe all things that you read in books ???

You didn't answer how you reconcile the contradiction of free will and predestination. All you did was state that you realise there is a contradiction and that because you are a "Christian" you have developed "a high tolerance for incongruity" (which appears to be copy and pasted from a previous post of yours as it is word for word the same). Would that be the same as saying that you are gullible to the point of stupidity ???

Finally, the only proof you offer is in a passage of a book that you do not know the author of and have no way of validating the veracity of the passage, let alone that the same book makes contradictory statements about predestination and free will. In other words, you have offered no proof.

Thus your statement is merely a fabrication of yours, or a regurgitation of the fabrication you have been indoctrinated with, and has no basis in reality.

Now, if we put this all into context:

- You believe what is written in a book that you do not know the author of.
- You believe what this author says without any proof.
- You do not actually know whether this author is telling the truth or not and admit that the author has made contradictions.
- You admit that you recognise the contradictions, but ignore them in favour of believing that the author has written the 'Word of God', without any proof that this is so.
- You then attempt to use your belief within a debate and find yourself unable to back up the statements that you make based upon your belief.

[malachi4]

Its predestination by foreknowledge

Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive.

Either your 'God' gave you free will, which your religious text says that apparently your 'God' did, or everything is predestined and you have no control.

Now, if you had no control because 'God' had already set everything up and it is all predestined, then how could you be held accountable for anything that you did as it was predestined and you couldn't change any of it. For instance, it would already be predestined that you are going to 'Hell' for all eternity to suffer in torment because your 'God' has already decided that is what is going to happen to you, predestination.

Nothing you could do could change that by your way of thinking and therefore nothing that you think, do or say will have any impact on the outcome. So, by your way of thinking, predestination, nothing anyone does can change what is going to happen and if this was the scenario, what would be the point of you attempting to influence your 'God' when your 'God' has already made up 'His' mind about what will happen ???

Obviously there are some contradictions that you could have a think about before you post religious propaganda based in fear that has no basis in reality and therefore save everyone from pointing out the obvious for you.

Or you can continue to be blind to reality and continue to live in a fantasy as you appear to be currently doing.

My friend didn't you get what i said 1st time

Say you can go into the future and you stay there for the year 2011(full year being invisible)
Wont you know everything about that year ?
Say you see your wife leaves you in the middle of April 2011,to run of with a other man and live with him

So you return to 2009 you will know exactly what she is going to do in 2011.Even if she say now she loves you and she will never leave you.
You know in 2011 she is going to run away from you

So by your foreknowledge you know what see is going to do

Same with God he knows everything the beginning till the end
So he knows what you are going to do in the future
and upon that you are chosen

[I AM ALL I AM]

My friend didn't you get what i said 1st time

Say you can go into the future and you stay there for the year 2011(full year being invisible)
Wont you know everything about that year ?
Say you see your wife leaves you in the middle of April 2011,to run of with a other man and live with him

So you return to 2009 you will know exactly what she is going to do in 2011.Even if she say now she loves you and she will never leave you.
You know in 2011 she is going to run away from you

So by your foreknowledge you know what see is going to do

Same with God he knows everything the beginning till the end
So he knows what you are going to do in the future
and upon that you are chosen

G'day Malachi4.

It makes absolutely no sense, exactly like the first time that you posted it.

You also failed to answer the question that I posted.

This is a debate, not a place to entertain your fantasies that, apart from making no sense, are not proof of anything except that you have a lack of logic and a limited imagination.

[McCulloch]

Say you can go into the future and you stay there for the year 2011(full year being invisible)
Wont you know everything about that year ?
Say you see your wife leaves you in the middle of April 2011,to run of with a other man and live with him

So you return to 2009 you will know exactly what she is going to do in 2011.Even if she say now she loves you and she will never leave you.
You know in 2011 she is going to run away from you

So by your foreknowledge you know what see is going to do

Same with God he knows everything the beginning till the end
So he knows what you are going to do in the future
and upon that you are chosen

If I learn what is in the future, I can change my behavior in the present on the basis of that knowledge thereby changing the future.

In your example, if I was able to observe the future and see that my wife will leave me, I might then on the basis of the knowledge, leave her now. This is the kind of paradox which makes time travel impossible. The arrow of causality must go only one direction.

If God knows the future and God is all powerful, then he would be able to make this the best of all possible worlds, by controlling all random events and the initial conditions. If he knows that the majority of people will reject him (the wide path) and that only a minority of people will have saving faith (the narrow gate) how can this be said to be the best of all possible worlds? If God did not create the best of all possible worlds for us, how can it be said that God loves humans?

[tlong]

Its predestination by foreknowledge

Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive.

Either your 'God' gave you free will, which your religious text says that apparently your 'God' did, or everything is predestined and you have no control.

Now, if you had no control because 'God' had already set everything up and it is all predestined, then how could you be held accountable for anything that you did as it was predestined and you couldn't change any of it. For instance, it would already be predestined that you are going to 'Hell' for all eternity to suffer in torment because your 'God' has already decided that is what is going to happen to you, predestination.



Hey! We do agree on something. Predestination is an ignorant doctrine.




Nothing you could do could change that by your way of thinking and therefore nothing that you think, do or say will have any impact on the outcome. So, by your way of thinking, predestination, nothing anyone does can change what is going to happen and if this was the scenario, what would be the point of you attempting to influence your 'God' when your 'God' has already made up 'His' mind about what will happen ???

Obviously there are some contradictions that you could have a think about before you post religious propaganda based in fear that has no basis in reality and therefore save everyone from pointing out the obvious for you.

Or you can continue to be blind to reality and continue to live in a fantasy as you appear to be currently doing.

[tlong]

So, seeing the above scriptures, what can you conclude? Who does the rejecting? Us or God?

Before we are born, God already knows if we will reject him or not so he predestines our life based on his foreknowledge.

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

You don't need to tell me that there is a bit of a contradiction there, I can see it myself but when you become a Christian you develop a high tolerance for incongruity.

The passage you are quoting is referring to the church, the body of the saved, christians.

[tlong]

Before we are born, God already knows if we will reject him or not so he predestines our life based on his foreknowledge.

Who told you this ???

Romans 8:28-30

Or are you claiming to know the mind of 'God' ???

No.

Or has 'God' spoken to you and told you 'His' thoughts ???

No.

How do you reconcile the fact that the bible states that 'God' gave man free will with the fact that free will and predestination are mutually exclusive ???

You don't need to tell me that there is a bit of a contradiction there, I can see it myself but when you become a Christian you develop a high tolerance for incongruity.

What proof do you have that backs up your statement ???

Romans 8:28-30

G'day Olavisjo.

So, firstly, no one told you, you read it in a book that you do not know the author of. Do you as easily believe all things that you read in books ???

You didn't answer how you reconcile the contradiction of free will and predestination. All you did was state that you realise there is a contradiction and that because you are a "Christian" you have developed "a high tolerance for incongruity" (which appears to be copy and pasted from a previous post of yours as it is word for word the same). Would that be the same as saying that you are gullible to the point of stupidity ???

Finally, the only proof you offer is in a passage of a book that you do not know the author of and have no way of validating the veracity of the passage, let alone that the same book makes contradictory statements about predestination and free will. In other words, you have offered no proof.

Thus your statement is merely a fabrication of yours, or a regurgitation of the fabrication you have been indoctrinated with, and has no basis in reality.

Now, if we put this all into context:

- You believe what is written in a book that you do not know the author of.
- You believe what this author says without any proof.
- You do not actually know whether this author is telling the truth or not and admit that the author has made contradictions.
- You admit that you recognise the contradictions, but ignore them in favour of believing that the author has written the 'Word of God', without any proof that this is so.
- You then attempt to use your belief within a debate and find yourself unable to back up the statements that you make based upon your belief.

The concept of us being born guilty of Adam's sin is a false doctrine. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father.

[olavisjo]

G'day Olavisjo.

So, firstly, no one told you, you read it in a book that you do not know the author of. Do you as easily believe all things that you read in books ???

It is commonly assumed that the book of Romans was written by the hand of Paul with the vocabulary from his heart by the inspiration of God. And I do believe all inspired scripture.

You didn't answer how you reconcile the contradiction of free will and predestination. All you did was state that you realise there is a contradiction and that because you are a "Christian" you have developed "a high tolerance for incongruity" (which appears to be copy and pasted from a previous post of yours as it is word for word the same). Would that be the same as saying that you are gullible to the point of stupidity ???

Well yes, but in the words of the poet "stupid is as stupid does".
Free will and predestination are simply a paradox, I have never seen any proof that they are mutually exclusive as you claim.

Finally, the only proof you offer is in a passage of a book that you do not know the author of and have no way of validating the veracity of the passage, let alone that the same book makes contradictory statements about predestination and free will. In other words, you have offered no proof.

The purpose of this sub forum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

Thus your statement is merely a fabrication of yours, or a regurgitation of the fabrication you have been indoctrinated with, and has no basis in reality.

Now, if we put this all into context:

- You believe what is written in a book that you do not know the author of.
- You believe what this author says without any proof.
- You do not actually know whether this author is telling the truth or not and admit that the author has made contradictions.
- You admit that you recognise the contradictions, but ignore them in favour of believing that the author has written the 'Word of God', without any proof that this is so.
- You then attempt to use your belief within a debate and find yourself unable to back up the statements that you make based upon your belief.

Did you respond to my post as a matter of your own free will, or were you predestined to answer it?

[olavisjo]

If I learn what is in the future, I can change my behavior in the present on the basis of that knowledge thereby changing the future.

In your example, if I was able to observe the future and see that my wife will leave me, I might then on the basis of the knowledge, leave her now. This is the kind of paradox which makes time travel impossible. The arrow of causality must go only one direction.

Fortunately only God can see the future and he knows better than to mess things up.

If God knows the future and God is all powerful, then he would be able to make this the best of all possible worlds, by controlling all random events and the initial conditions. If he knows that the majority of people will reject him (the wide path) and that only a minority of people will have saving faith (the narrow gate) how can this be said to be the best of all possible worlds? If God did not create the best of all possible worlds for us, how can it be said that God loves humans?

It is the best that it can be.
It is like your local gas station, they can raise the price of each gallon expecting to get more revenue, but instead sales drop and so do profits. If they instead reduce prices in hopes of selling more, the amount of profit they lose is not offset by the increase in sales. So they are already at the point of maximum profits.

[Munchskreem]

Fortunately only God can see the future and he knows better than to mess things up.

If he can see in the future, and there are mess ups, then I'd have to wonder why there are those that do not follow him. That seems like a big logistical error if your goal is to get as many followers as possible who love and respect you.

It is the best that it can be.
It is like your local gas station, they can raise the price of each gallon expecting to get more revenue, but instead sales drop and so do profits. If they instead reduce prices in hopes of selling more, the amount of profit they lose is not offset by the increase in sales. So they are already at the point of maximum profits.

How is that so? Any passages supporting that claim? If not, then it's pretty much unconfirmed as to whether or not this is the best of all possible worlds. If it was, then I'd be quite surprised. I should imagine that God would be wiser than the average gas station manager, and able to turn a far better profit.