Justification by faith

[MattHoppy]

Would love to have a respectful discussion with members, particularly Catholics and adherents to Lordship Salvation on the topic of Justification by faith. I would love to discuss this topic in detail with any interested.

[MattHoppy]

[Replying to post 9 by Red Wolf]

Justification By Faith
Romans 4:5
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hebrews 4
For we which have believed do enter into rest...

A couple points, why would works be required for salvation when God said that when we work, we get reckoned the reward of debt?
Why would God tell us not to work?
Second, why would God state that those who believe do enter into rest? Notice no mention of works, personal commitments etc. Instead God brings into the illustration of the Sabbath, and states that he who has entered His rest has ceased from his own works?
What did Jesus state in John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[MattHoppy]

[Replying to post 10 by Adstar]

Awesome story, and Praise the Lord for the miracle of salvation!

I would agree, we are to bear fruit to bring glory and honor to the Saviour, not to merit salvation.
That is why Christ lovingly chose to save us, to bring His Name even more honor and glory!
May God bless you as You Serve Him

[brianbbs67]

I , also, agree that works do not guarantee salvation. However, we should obey God's commands out of respect for the rules He gave for this world. Christ preached the same thing. Follow God as God instructed not as man tells us. "for you have a fine way of doing this, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men"

[PinSeeker]

This is a refreshing conversation... at least so far. It would be nice to keep it small and intimate as it is now, but I fear that will not remain the case. At any rate:

Yes, works do not earn or guarantee salvation. God's work of justification -- which is a one-time event -- alone guarantees salvation. Saving faith inevitably follows, begun in us by the quickening work of the Holy Spirit, and our works are the natural outflow of all of that. So, yes, we will be judged according to our works, for sure, but it is still God's work of giving us His Spirit that initiates it all... and ensures its completion. As Paul says in Philippians 1:6, "He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Christ." And as we read in Hebrews 12, Jesus is the author and protector/finisher of our faith.

What James is saying in chapter 2 of his epistle -- "faith without works is dead" -- is that if there are no works that validate the faith one thinks he may have -- or, in judging for oneself whether the faith that another says he has is real or not -- then that "faith" is not of God and thus not salvific.

As for me, I traveled down many different roads before God directed me to where I am now. I have wished many times that He had not taken me on such a circuitous route, but having been through it, I'm grateful for it and have a much greater appreciation for it than I otherwise would have. As they say, providence is 20/20 in hindsight. I see now that God was teaching me to delight in His way so that He would establish my steps (Psalm 37:23). And moving forward, God's Word is indeed a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path (Psalm 119:105).

Grace and peace to you guys (and ladies, if there are any here)!

[brianbbs67]

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Joshua here, again(Yeshua/Jesus)

5 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 11 by MattHoppy]

If I quote a Scripture and you quote a Scripture that says the opposite of my Scripture have you proven anything? I think you have proven that the Bible has contradictions.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 11 by MattHoppy]

If I quote a Scripture and you quote a Scripture that says the opposite of my Scripture have you proven anything? I think you have proven that the Bible has contradictions.

I don't think you have proven anything.

So-called contradictions are more apparent than they are real.

They illustrate more about our limitations than about any the Scripture may be thought to have.

[2timothy316]

Its definitely an interesting and very important topic that has been discussed almost since the beginning of the churches existence (as you all already know)
I think it goes back to the issue, what exactly must one do to be saved, and why does that particular "action" make that person at peace with God.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.�—John 17:3

There is a lot packed into this scripture though, namely the whole Bible and all of God's creation. It takes work to 'get to know' the only True God.

Once we start getting to know the only True God then we start to love Him. But what does that mean? “This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.�​ 1 JOHN 5:3.

Following commandments will also mean we will have to do something. Yet none of this will be set into motion without faith. What is faith? “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.� Heb 11:1. Faith is not to be confused with credulity. Credulity is "readiness or willingness to believe especially on slight or uncertain evidence." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/credulity True faith those is based on trust in something or someone and evidence that we can trust it or them. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow though I have no guarantees that it will. Why do I have faith the Earth will be spinning tomorrow? It's based on the evidence of the Earth's historical record and my own experience of decades of being on the Earth as it continues to spin without fail.

Faith in God works much the same way. I do not trust Him or have faith in Him with little or no evidence. That would be credulity. I have 'worked' to build faith in Him which in turn motivates me to exercise faith or work in faith. Hebrews 6:10 says, "For God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name by ministering and continuing to minister to the holy ones." Note that work and love shown are mentioned in the same breath here. This is not a bad concept is it, 'love shown' but that would denote work would it not? Yet just as it said in 1 John 5:3, that kind of work is not burdensome is it? It might be hard but it's not burdensome. Which leads us to examine the work we are doing. How does it make us feel? Burdened? Unhappy? If so we might need to re-examine ourselves and why are are doing what we are doing in the name of God.

[MattHoppy]

[Replying to post 18 by 2timothy316]

Interesting thoughts...I had a hard time following everything...probably just me . You said,

Faith in God works much the same way. I do not trust Him or have faith in Him with little or no evidence. That would be credulity. I have 'worked' to build faith in Him which in turn motivates me to exercise faith or work in faith.

Are you saying that you have "worked" to develop a trust in the Saviour's credibility or that your works have made your faith in the Saviour credible?
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
The Bible teaches that simple faith is all that is required to justify a soul in the sight of God. I do agree, the Bible does teach that that faith is shown by the works that follow it.
However, as Philippians 3:9 teaches I don't have any confidence in the works that follow salvation, but rather in what Christ did for me at Calvary.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 11 by MattHoppy]

If I quote a Scripture and you quote a Scripture that says the opposite of my Scripture have you proven anything? I think you have proven that the Bible has contradictions.

It's not that the Bible has contradictions. The thing is....the Scriptures were written in a certain way in the original Hebrew and Greek, and we often have to go back to those languages to get the meaning, and usually it's by way of an Interlinear version, since most of us don't read Hebrew or Greek.

Very often we can determine that verses have been tampered with, and/or punctuation presented in certain ways that perpetuate a certain belief (when the original languages do not have any punctuation or upper-case letters).



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