In preaching to Jews,

[Elijah John]

Jesus preached to Jews, and all of his first apostles and disciples were Jews.

For debate, what did Jesus preach that was not already provided by devout observance of Judaism? How was his message different than that or any reforming Jew of the day?

From Luke:

"they have Moses and the Prophets, if they don't listen to them, neither will they listen if someone were to rise from the dead".

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 15 by PinSeeker]

There will be no more sin, and God will have wiped every tear from our eyes. Everlasting joy upon our heads, and we will have found gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will faded away.

God failed miserably to achieve that the first time around so what makes you so sure that his plan won't go belly up again?

The first time around??

The Bible has told us that complete freedom from evil will be a reality after Armageddon, the war of God the Almighty. Nowhere in the Bible did it say that God would get rid of evil before then. So God didn't "fail miserably."



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[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Jesus claimed to be The Messiah....but never fulfilled any of the Messianic prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yes he did. He fulfilled everything in Isaiah 53, and more.
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But lets take a look at Isaiah 53.

First of all, I can quote you a dozen Scriptures that refer to Israel as God's Servant.
But I cannot think of a single Scripture that refers to the Messiah as God's Servant.
Help me. Can you quote a Scripture that says that the Messiah is God's servant?

But here is a very important verse in Isaiah 53. Take out your KJV and lets look at this one together.
Isaiah 53:9 (King James Version)
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Do you see the enormous problem with this verse? Reeeealllllly BIG.

Is 53:9 says....""he made his grave with the wicked""
But Jesus made his grave with the RICH. He was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. His grave was NOT with the wicked.

Is 53:9 says....""with the rich in his death""
But Jesus was with the WICKED in his death. The two evildoers on the crosses on either side. Jesus was NOT with the rich in his death.

When the New Testament was fabricated the gospel writers got this Scripture mixed up and they told the story the opposite way from Isaiah 53:9.

A little error like this just blows away any credibility in the New Testament.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Jesus claimed to be The Messiah....but never fulfilled any of the Messianic prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yes he did. He fulfilled everything in Isaiah 53, and more.
.

But lets take a look at Isaiah 53.

First of all, I can quote you a dozen Scriptures that refer to Israel as God's Servant.

I just explained to you why Isaiah 53 could not be referring to the nation of Israel as the suffering servant. Will you please comment on my reasoning there?



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[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Jesus claimed to be The Messiah....but never fulfilled any of the Messianic prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yes he did. He fulfilled everything in Isaiah 53, and more.
.

But lets take a look at Isaiah 53.

First of all, I can quote you a dozen Scriptures that refer to Israel as God's Servant.

I just explained to you why Isaiah 53 could not be referring to the nation of Israel as the suffering servant. Will you please comment on my reasoning there

.

Allow me to show you something else that I discovered concerning Isaiah 53 which casts doubt that this passage is about Jesus.

Isaiah 53:10 (King James Version)
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief

This is only the first line of this verse. But this is the part that is relevant to what I want to show you.

Now compare this to a Jewish translation.
Tanakh The New Jewish Publication Society
But the LORD chose to crush him by disease

Here is another Jewish translation.
Chabad translation
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill;
As you can see, in the KJV, it says he hath put him to grief, but instead of grief, the Jewish translations indicate "disease" and "ill"

If God crushed Jesus with "disease" or "illness" it just doesn't fit the Jesus story.
So the KJV and most of the other Christian Bibles say "grief" or "suffer" to make the translation fit the Jesus story.

But the Harper Collins New Revised Standard Version has a margin note that says "by disease"

Look at Young’s translation.
Isaiah 53:10
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick,

So which is it? Did God crush his servant and put him to grief? Or did God crush his servant and make him sick?

The Hebrew word in question is "ghahlah" strong's #2470.
Here are some examples of its use in other Scriptures.
Hosea 7:5 (King James Version)
5In the day of our king the princes have made him sick

Micah 6:13 (King James Version)
13Therefore also will I make thee sick

1 Samuel 30:13 (King James Version)
three days agone I fell sick.

1 Kings 14:1 (King James Version)
1At that time Abijah the son of Jeroboam fell sick.

2 Chronicles 32:24 (King James Version)
24In those days Hezekiah was sick

Check it out for yourself. I'm sure you will.
IMHO the correct translation is of being crushed by sickness, indicates that Isaiah 53 does not fit Jesus.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Jesus claimed to be The Messiah....but never fulfilled any of the Messianic prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yes he did. He fulfilled everything in Isaiah 53, and more.
.

But lets take a look at Isaiah 53.

First of all, I can quote you a dozen Scriptures that refer to Israel as God's Servant.

I just explained to you why Isaiah 53 could not be referring to the nation of Israel as the suffering servant. Will you please comment on my reasoning there

.

Allow me to show you something else that I discovered concerning Isaiah 53 which casts doubt that this passage is about Jesus.

Isaiah 53:10 (King James Version)
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief

This is only the first line of this verse. But this is the part that is relevant to what I want to show you.

Now compare this to a Jewish translation.
Tanakh The New Jewish Publication Society
But the LORD chose to crush him by disease

Here is another Jewish translation.
Chabad translation
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill;
As you can see, in the KJV, it says he hath put him to grief, but instead of grief, the Jewish translations indicate "disease" and "ill"

If God crushed Jesus with "disease" or "illness" it just doesn't fit the Jesus story.
So the KJV and most of the other Christian Bibles say "grief" or "suffer" to make the translation fit the Jesus story.

But the Harper Collins New Revised Standard Version has a margin note that says "by disease"

Look at Young’s translation.
Isaiah 53:10
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
10 And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick,

So which is it? Did God crush his servant and put him to grief? Or did God crush his servant and make him sick?

The Hebrew word in question is "ghahlah" strong's #2470.
Here are some examples of its use in other Scriptures.
Hosea 7:5 (King James Version)
5In the day of our king the princes have made him sick

Micah 6:13 (King James Version)
13Therefore also will I make thee sick

1 Samuel 30:13 (King James Version)
three days agone I fell sick.

1 Kings 14:1 (King James Version)
1At that time Abijah the son of Jeroboam fell sick.

2 Chronicles 32:24 (King James Version)
24In those days Hezekiah was sick

Check it out for yourself. I'm sure you will.
IMHO the correct translation is of being crushed by sickness, indicates that Isaiah 53 does not fit Jesus.

I looked up 53:10 in two Hebrew Bibles. In the footnotes of both it said that "the meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain."

This single verse is not enough to throw out my whole argument. The entirety of the rest of the chapter shows clearly that the nation of Israel could not be the Servant. Verse 11b states:"My RIGHTEOUS servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears."

The nation was not "righteous" in any sense of the word. I think I posted one or two stinging statements that Jehovah made about His people.

1) Was Israel "righteous?" Jeremiah 6:6,7: "For thus said the LORD of Hosts: 'Hew down her trees, and raise a siegemound against Jerusalem. She si the city destined for punishment; only FRAUD is found in her midst. As a well flows with water, so she flows with WICKEDNESS."

2) The Servant was righteous and had "done no injustice and had spoken no falsehood." Could that be said of Israel? What did Jehovah say at Jeremiah 9:6-8? "Assuredly, thus said the LORD of Hosts: Lo, I shall smelt and assay them---For what else can I do because of my poor people? Their tongue is a sharpened arrow, they use their mouths to DECEIVE. One speaks to his fellow in friendship, but lays an ambush for him in his heart. Shall I not punish them for such deeds? Shall I not bring retribution on such a nation as this?"

The nation was deceitful, brimming with falsehood. The Servant had NO FALSEHOOD within him. The Servant had NO VIOLENCE within him either. How about the nation?

Hosea 4:2: "False swearing, dishonesty, and MURDER, and theft and adultery are rife; crime follows upon crime!"


3) The nation of Israel clearly could not be the suffering "righteous" Servant of Isaiah 53. Another verse brings the point home that the Messiah that came FOR Israel was the Servant:

"He was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my people, who deserved the punishment." (v.8)

Two different entities here--"he," the Servant, and "my people," Israel. Israel was so bad they deserved the punishment, but the Messiah would take upon himself "the guilt of all of us." (v.6) Isaiah kept lamenting the terrible guilt of his people. The Messiah would "bear the guilt of many and make intercession for sinners." (v.12) Israel cannot fudge around with these verses. That nation is plainly the people who have sinned and have need of a Savior.



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[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 24 by onewithhim]

Further I cannot see why it would be problematic to apply Isiah 53 verse 10 to the Messiah; already verse 5 explains

ISAIAH 53:5 - ESV

But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

So any suffering or "sickness"* the Messiah suffered would not be because of inherited sin but as a result of his taking on the sickness of others.


* The Hebrew word translated in ESV and other translations as "sickness" [heh.CHALAH] is quite versatile.

[Sojournerofthearth]

For debate, what did Jesus preach that was not already provided by devout observance of Judaism? How was his message different than that or any reforming Jew of the day?

I can't really speak for anyone else, however, as you quoted,

Luk 16:31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. 

He obviously expected that they would hold onto what was taught by Moses and the Prophets... so He wasn't discounting that, nor were the Apostles, contrary to popular opinion. But what He brought to the table was an expanse of the Commandments of God. He took them beyond do this.... don't do that, and expounded on them, in that Adultery begins in the head and if you're day dreaming about it, you're already guilty. Christ let them know that the whole game is what is going on in your head. Its all the things you hold in your heart that defile a man. It wasn't just a matter of trying not to say bad things, it was a matter of not thinking them. It was to learn not to harbor things like animosity... it was an expansion of the Law of God. But the Law of God wasn't absent of those principles.

Lev_19:14  Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

You don't make fun of those who can't hear you. You don't trip a blind guy to entertain yourself.

Exo_22:21  Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

You don't take advantage of those who don't speak your language or grasp your customs.

Lev 25:35  And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee. 
Lev 25:36  Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. 
Lev 25:37  Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase. 

You help the poor and those who struggle without expecting to take advantage of him.

Lev_23:22  And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

You provide a way for the poor to feed themselves.

Christ came to expound on GOD's law, not Jewish traditions.

Mat_23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Which were often put above God's law.

Mar_7:11  But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

But he did not free anyone from God's law, as he told the people in the presence of the Temple leaders, do what they bid you to do, but do not be the hypocrites they are.

Mat 23:2  Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 
Mat 23:3  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 

He also came to announce the coming Kingdom of God and how to be a part of it.

Mat_4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat_7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mar_1:14  Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And he came that they all might know the Father,

Mat 11:27  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 

Just Father, the world, also, knew Thee not, yet I knew Thee. And these know that Thou dost commission Me." And I make known to them Thy name, and I shall make it known, that the love with which Thou lovest Me may be in them, and I in them." (John 17:25-26)

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

But, by and large, his message was not so different... As Paul told Timothy,

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

The only scripture that existed at that time, was the Old Testament and Paul said it was profitable for Doctrine, Reproof, Correction, Instruction in Righteousness to make a man perfect and thoroughly furnished to good works.

Soj

[Red Wolf]

No Seed for Jesus...Isaiah 53 not about Jesus

Isaiah 53:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

“he shall see his seed�

Seed.. Strong’s #2233 Zehrag in Hebrew
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, gives agricultural definitions for the Hebrew word for “seed� and the definition, semen virile, offspring.

In the Septuagint Greek translation “seed� is translated with the Greek word “sperma� which indicates a clear meaning for seed in this verse.

Since Jesus never married according to Christian Tradition, this “seed� cannot apply to Jesus.

In instances in the Bible where “spiritual children “ are mentioned the Hebrew word “behn� Strongs # 1121 is used in contrast to the word “zehrag� which clearly refers to offspring of a sexual union.
For Example..
Deuteronomy 14:1 King James Version (KJV)
14 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

[Red Wolf]

Here is another problem verse in Isaiah 53 which proves that Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus.

Compare the following translations.......
Isaiah 53:8 (King James Version)
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isaiah 53:8 (Judaica Press Tanach)
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
The question is....Is the pronoun singular in the Hebrew text "he" or is the pronoun plural in the Hebrew text "them" ??? Most assuredly the pronoun is plural in the Hebrew text. "Them" is the correct translation. The KJV is a wrong translation and the Jewish translation is correct.

The pronoun "lamo" is always translated as "them" in the OT, because it is plural. But the Christian translators translated "lamo" as a singular "he" at Isaiah 53:8, because otherwise this verse could absolutely not be about Jesus
The Christian translators mistranslated this verse to try and make it about Jesus when in reality this verse is about the nation of Israel. The Jewish translation is correct.

[Red Wolf]

Isaiah 53:3 (New American Standard Bible)
3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Do you think that description fits Jesus?
I think that Jesus was wildly popular, and people crowded around him, and listened to him speak.

Matthew 4:23-25 (New American Standard Bible)
23Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.
24The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them.
25Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan.

I can probably find a dozen passages like this showing how popular Jesus was. Think about preaching to the multitude the sermon on the mount, feeding the 5000, feeding the 4000, riding a donkey into town to the cheers of his countrymen.
Jesus was mobbed every time he showed up. He was more popular than the Beatles.

This verse does not describe Jesus.
Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus...