God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

Judgment is a one time event which has an end.

You claim above that at the end of judgment, those on the left will go into a place of unending judgment.

Please explain how judgment as used in the scriptures has an end, while being unending?

Well, I have, and very clearly, several times now, but will again. Yes, THE Judgment is a one time event which has an end. Being subject to that judgment is a different thing though, and... because of the second death, which results (for some) from the Judgment event... has no end.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[Divine Insight]

According to the scriptures Jesus has proclaimed that if a person does not judge others they will not be judged.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

So anyone who doesn't judge others won't be judged unless Jesus is a liar.

So the only people who need to worry about being judged are those who judge others.

Same thing goes for condemnation. The only people who need to worry about being condemned are those who condemn others.

Similarly for forgiveness. The way to obtain forgiveness is not to simply ask for forgiveness. According to Jesus that won't do any good. According to Jesus you obtain forgiveness by forgiving others.

In fact, according to Luke 6:37 we are all in charge of our own eternal destiny. No need for Jesus to be our penal substitute or savior. Nor can it be important to believe in Jesus. Otherwise Jesus would have been lying when he said the words attributed to him by Luke 6:37.

A person doesn't need to believe in this religion to understand what the scriptures actually have to say.

Belief in Jesus or Yahweh is totally unimportant. Even if they exist it's not important to believe in them. They aren't the egotistical monsters that Christians like to believe. They aren't going to throw an immature temper tantrum if you don't bow down and worship them. And if the scriptures claim they would in other places, then the scriptures are self-contradictory. Thus proving that they are untrustworthy at the very least.

How could we trust Luke 6:37 if there are contradictory scriptures elsewhere in this canon of rumors? A canon that contradicts itself cannot stand.

[myth-one.com]

Judgment is a one time event which has an end.

You claim above that at the end of judgment, those on the left will go into a place of unending judgment.

Please explain how judgment as used in the scriptures has an end, while being unending?

Well, I have, and very clearly, several times now, but will again. Yes, THE Judgment is a one time event which has an end. Being subject to that judgment is a different thing though, and... because of the second death, which results (for some) from the Judgment event... has no end.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

The second death ends in death -- an end of life.

That is why it is called the second death.

The first "death" is appointed to all mankind, while the second death is optional.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 30 by myth-one.com]

Where is "everlasting personal anguish" ever mentioned in the scriptures as being applied to mankind?

Please quote verses which apply.

There are none.

Jesus does say repeatedly, however, there will be such personal anguish expressed by those shut out of the kingdom, in response to hearing their own Judgment pronouncement.

He described it as "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

That is not their judgment, and is thus not an eternal experience.

[Checkpoint]

Judgment is a one time event which has an end.

You claim above that at the end of judgment, those on the left will go into a place of unending judgment.

Please explain how judgment as used in the scriptures has an end, while being unending?

Well, I have, and very clearly, several times now, but will again. Yes, THE Judgment is a one time event which has an end. Being subject to that judgment is a different thing though, and... because of the second death, which results (for some) from the Judgment event... has no end.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

Yes, the Second Death has no end.

That is, those so judged will never live again; the judgment is final and irreversible.

May the Lord make His face to shine on you, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

Yes, the Second Death has no end. That is, those so judged will never live again; the judgment is final and irreversible.

Agreed. But the Second Death is not a cessation from existence. Nowhere in God's Word is it ever said or implied otherwise; quite the opposite is described and graphically shown. Annihilationism is not Biblical in any way, shape, or form.

I've said before and I'll say again here:

Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. After all, only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do.

Nowhere in Scripture does death signify extinction; physical death is departure into another mode of being, called sheol or hades, and metaphorical death is existence that is God-less and graceless; nothing in biblical usage warrants the idea that the Second Death of Revelation 2:11; 20:14; and 21:8 means or involves cessation of being.

Moreover, Luke 16:22–24 shows that, as in a good deal of extra-biblical apocalyptic, fire signifies continued existence in pain. The chilling words of Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and of Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Paul explains, or extends, the meaning of “punished with everlasting [eternal, aionios] destruction� by adding “and shut out from the presence of the Lord�—which, by affirming exclusion, rules out the idea that “destruction� meant extinction. Only those who exist can be excluded. It’s often been pointed out that in Greek the natural meaning of the destruction vocabulary (noun, olethros; verb, apollumi) is “wrecking,� so that what’s destroyed is henceforth nonfunctional rather than annihilated altogether.

Grace and peace to you also, Checkpoint.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 36 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:

Yes, the Second Death has no end. That is, those so judged will never live again; the judgment is final and irreversible.

Pinseeker responded:

Agreed. But the Second Death is not a cessation from existence. Nowhere in God's Word is it ever said or implied otherwise; quite the opposite is described and graphically shown. Annihilationism is not Biblical in any way, shape, or form.

The Second Death is not a continuation of existence, but rather, the final end of those it hurts.

It is the end of death itself, and of pain, of the curse, and of the night with its darkness.

Those so ended belonged in that old order that will then have passed away.

What that leaves is the new order, displayed in all its glorious light and beauty and wonder, in which righteousness dwells.

2 Peter:

7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

10 But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

12 as you look forward to the Day of God and speed its coming. That Day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

13 But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

May the Lord give you His peace, always, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

The Second Death is not a continuation of existence, but rather, the final end of those it hurts.

I agree not, then, with you (or anyone else with the same position on this matter), but with Scripture, which was always the case.

It is the end of death itself, and of pain, of the curse, and of the night with its darkness.

For those of us who are in Christ, yes.

What that leaves is the new order, displayed in all its glorious light and beauty and wonder, in which righteousness dwells.

For those of us who are in Christ, yes.

• 2 Peter:
  
  7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
  
  10 But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
  
  11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
  
  12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. b That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
  
  13 But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Yes, this is a picture of the Judgment to come. This is precisely why Peter, in reference to Old Testament passages, injects the image of fire, and burning up, as God Himself is a consuming fire and will lay everything bare -- everything will be exposed, as the ESV well translates the Greek there (verse 10). Nothing -- NOTHING -- will be literally destroyed, or wiped from existence. Annihilation is not taught in this passage, but rather the final transformation of the present cosmos, including the earth, to its completely redeemed and renewed state -- all creation is returned to the "very good" state it was in before Adam's fall in Genesis 3 -- which God affirms in Revelation 21:5. After the Judgment, He says, from His throne, “Behold, I am making all things new.�

I regret deeply that we cannot come to agreement, but trust that you will not view it as grounds to break our fellowship in either the short or long run or anything in between. Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[myth-one.com]

The Second Death is not a continuation of existence, but rather, the final end of those it hurts.

I agree not, then, with you (or anyone else with the same position on this matter), but with Scripture, which was always the case.

But earlier you wrote, "Yes, the Second Death has no end.

That is, those so judged will never live again; the judgment is final and irreversible."

Now you seem to be back on everlasting existence for non-believers.

Please decide on one or the other.

It is the end of death itself, and of pain, of the curse, and of the night with its darkness.

For those of us who are in Christ, yes.

Actually, the second death has no affect on those who are Christ's:

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (Revelation 2:11)

What that leaves is the new order, displayed in all its glorious light and beauty and wonder, in which righteousness dwells.

For those of us who are in Christ, yes.

Those are the only ones left.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 38 by PinSeeker]

I regret deeply that we cannot come to agreement, but trust that you will not view it as grounds to break our fellowship in either the short or long run or anything in between. Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

Me too.

No, I am not here to break fellowship with you, or with anyone else.

Rather, I am here to build bridges, whenever possible.

1 Corinthians 8:

1 Now about food sacrificed to idols:

We know that “We all possess knowledge.� But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.

2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3But whoever loves God is known by God.

Bless you and yours, Pinseeker.